Why Babies Want to Sleep Close | Understanding Baby Sleep and Bed Sharing

Ceridwen

Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. My name is Caridin, I'm your podcast host and your guide to preparing for a smoother start to life with your new baby. Here on the Postpartum Prep Podcast, we talk about all things preparing for life after birth, from breastfeeding to sleep, mental health, your relationship as a couple, and so much more.

Today, we are focusing on baby sleep. I've done a couple of baby sleep episodes recently. We had one on baby sleep safety, and we had another talking about why parents bed share.

And this episode is, I think, a little bit of an elaboration on the last episode I released, which was the episode about why families bed share. Because in that episode, I shared stories from real moms who had bed shared, even though they originally had planned that they never would bed share, and then went on to bed share in some of them for several years. And in that episode, we saw some really common themes about why families ended up bed sharing, because their baby wanted to be close to them, and the baby wouldn't sleep if they put them down in their own crib.

And today, we have Gabrielle Ferrara here. She is a nurture neuroscience practitioner, which means she completed a training with Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum, which is a neuroscience-based approach to supporting moms and babies. And one of the things she offers, one of the main things she offers as part of this, is sleep support.

She offers one-to-one sleep coaching services. And today, Gabrielle is going to be helping us to understand those mom stories that I shared last week in a bit more of a scientific context. While last week, a lot of moms shared about how their babies really just wanted to sleep close to them, this week, Gabrielle is going to be actually explaining to us the underlying science about why babies want to sleep close to us.

I think this is a really powerful episode for understanding your baby better. And that's really the most important thing that you need as a parent, is just understanding and perspective. And I'm super excited to share this episode with you today.

So without further ado, let's get into it. Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. Today, I'm here with Gabrielle Ferrara.

Gabrielle, can you just give us a little bit of intro into who you are and what you do?

Gabrielle

Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

So I kind of wear many hats, I feel like, but my current, you know, my full time job, I say, is being a mom. I'm a mom to a toddler. And I also am a nurture neuroscience practitioner.

So I provide individual one-to-one sleep support for families and for families of babies, ages zero to three, through the nurture neuroscience protocol, which is a protocol established by Dr. Greer Kirschenbaum, who is the author of The Nurture Revolution. And the protocol is based in biologically normal sleep, infant mental health, attachment, responsiveness with no sleep training. And it really focuses in on what our babies expect and what they need from us in terms of caregiver support in those early years as it pertains to sleep.

So I have, you know, that certification, as well as I am a mental health therapist, licensed therapist for moms. And I have specific training and education in perinatal mental health, maternal mental health. So those are kind of my many hats professionally.

And then, of course, bringing in my personal experience as a mom as well.

Ceridwen

Wow, that's awesome. I feel like you kind of can see from both sides for the mom and the baby. And so today we're going to be talking more on the sleep side of things, although I know that actually we're going to also do a Q&A episode after this for anyone who's listening.

It might already have been released, so you can check that out, which is a little bit more on like the mother's mental health side of things. But for this episode, we're going to be talking about baby sleep. Now, for the pregnant moms who might be listening, who just have absolutely no idea what to expect from baby sleep, they've heard maybe, you know, babies don't sleep a lot.

You'll be probably waking a lot at night, but maybe not seeing the full picture of things. Can you give us like maybe paint a picture, walk us through some of the common things that come up with baby sleep in the first few weeks or months or years?

Gabrielle

Yeah, yeah. So there's definitely a lot of expectations out there about what we expect from babies. And a lot of those expectations are truly not based in biological normal infant sleep.

So by that, I mean, we often expect that babies will want to sleep in their bassinet, that they'll want to sleep separate from mom. And the truth is, it's just it's not that simple. Some babies might be OK with that, but the vast majority will not be.

And many, many babies want to stay close to mom and sleep near mom and even sleep on top of mom touching her. And that is very normal. And very expected from a biological standpoint.

So, you know, some of these reasons why moms and babies, well, because moms want to sleep close to their babies, too. But why babies want to sleep close to mom is that baby human babies are born some of the most immature of all mammals. So what I mean by that is we are born essentially before before we're ready, for lack of a better term.

So if you think of like other mammals, they can kind of walk on their own shortly after being born. They can eat on their own, like, you know, all these types of things that human babies just can't do. So we are born needing to be close to mom for survival.

So we need to be carried. We need to be fed. We need to be held.

We can't do any of those things on our own when when human babies are first born. So we go through a period of gestation outside the womb. So that term extero-gestation is gestation outside of the womb where human babies are still developing and developing a lot, very quickly, very rapidly outside of the womb.

So it is so normal and biologically expected for babies to want to be near their mom because they are still needing them and using mom for development and growth and, you know, development.

Ceridwen

Yeah, it's so I find that I love that term extero-gestation because it really just like brings home the fact that they are still so dependent on us, really. And like, you know, everything from, I mean, I'm sure heart rate, temperature. I know from your perspective as a nurture neuroscience practitioner is nervous system regulation.

Do you think you can tell us a little bit more about like why babies like to sleep so close to mom and exactly kind of how that works?

Gabrielle

Yeah. Yeah. So from a science and evolution perspective, moms and babies are so in sync.

They exist in conjunction with each other. Like you can't have mom without baby and you can't have baby without mom in the sense that they are so intricately linked in many different ways. So some of the ways you mentioned briefly before.

So being close to mom helps regulate a baby's heart rate, temperature, respiration, you know, feeling mom breathe next to next to baby, feeling her her heartbeat, her any other sounds that she might be making like that helps regulate baby and help baby feel safe. And the other thing is closeness in terms of sleep facilitates frequent breastfeeding. So just naturally having mom close to baby.

If mom is choosing to breastfeed, facilitate that that frequent feeding, which helps regulate mom's milk supply, especially in those early days and early weeks, and really just solidifies that breastfeeding relationship. And that is a relationship that is very, very dependent on physical proximity, especially in those in those early weeks. So having baby sleep near mom and having mom be very attuned to those hunger cues and those frequent feedings and responsive feeding helps regulate that milk supply.

And as you mentioned, too, from a nervous system perspective, babies are, again, born very immature in the sense that their brains are also not developed. Babies are only born with 25 percent of their brain development having occurred already. So those early weeks and months and years even are so important for nervous system regulation because babies have to borrow our brains and our nervous systems as the adult responsive caregivers.

So they have to have us nearby as the adult caregiver to help them regulate their own nervous system. So having mom nearby sends those safety cues and that's those security cues to baby saying, I'm safe, I'm here with mom and she's protecting me and she's close to me and I can feel safe and regulated and relaxed. And all of those cues help baby enter that stage of sleep and that stage of rest and security and calm.

So mom is like the ultimate anchor for baby's nervous system and also physical regulation and homeostasis.

Ceridwen

Wow. And I think this is really interesting because usually when we're I mean, usually when we think of baby sleep, the first thing most people think of is like a crib or a bassinet that's like goes hand in hand with baby sleep. But what we're really talking about right now is actually co-sleeping or bed sharing.

Am I right?

Gabrielle

Yeah.

Ceridwen

And this is so different from probably what a lot of pregnant moms are actually hearing right now.

Gabrielle

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

So I can talk a little bit about that. So co-sleeping, I want to give some definitions first too, because co-sleeping I think is misunderstood in terms of definition, both by parents and by like research alike too. So we tend to talk about a lot of different things under the co-sleeping umbrella.

So co-sleeping is just in the simplest terms means baby is in the same room. Co-sleeping as an umbrella is like generally room sharing. Bed sharing is a subset of co-sleeping.

So bed sharing is when baby is in the bed with you on the same surface. Co-sleeping does get used generally to kind of mean bed sharing. And there's a, you know, technicality there in terms of what exactly people mean sometimes, which gets complicated in the research because, and again, I don't want to get too much into nitty gritty stuff for pregnant moms who are just kind of entering this world, but co-sleeping often gets roped in with like sleeping with your baby on a recliner, on a couch, on like surfaces that aren't a bed.

Those types of surfaces, which are not safe for sleeping, all get kind of put under the co-sleeping umbrella. So we want to be very conscious of our definition of co-sleeping. So we can get into it a little bit more, you know, in our conversation, but just in terms of understanding what co-sleeping is, room sharing or having baby in the same room is co-sleeping and so is bed sharing.

And so it's, it's chest sleeping. So babies often want to be very close to us in those early days and sleep on our chest. And we might be told that there are not safe ways to do that, or there are not good ways to do that, but there absolutely are.

And it's very normal for baby to want to be physically on us in addition to close to us. So, yeah, when we're talking about keeping baby close in those early days and weeks, we really are talking about co-sleeping in the sense that either baby is very, very close in the same room. So kind of like a, even like a sidecar crib situation or right next to the bed or physically in the bed with us.

And that's where, you know, those safe sleep guidelines really come into play. But I don't want to jump ahead. I want to make sure, you know, I follow your lead too, but I'd be happy to talk about that.

Yeah.

Ceridwen

That's great. Maybe we can talk, cause I think we've talked a little bit about, you know, co-sleeping on like a sofa or a recliner or something that that's not safe. Yeah.

Whereas I guess we're saying bed sharing could be safe if we're following safety guidelines. Do you want to touch on those a little bit now?

Gabrielle

Yeah. Yeah, I would love to. So I'm going to, so I'll talk a little bit about kind of the safe way to bed share and also like the protective factors of that co-sleeping bed sharing relationship.

So yeah, I think the, a lot of, a lot of the messaging parents get around co-sleeping is to never do it, to never do it, never bring baby in the bed. It's always dangerous. It's never something you want to do, you know, keep them in a separate place in the crib far away.

Basically telling moms that they are a danger to their babies just by existing, which is so far from the truth. Essentially moms are protective towards their babies, even in sleep. So research by Dr. James McKenna, Dr. Helen Ball show us that moms are protective for their babies, even in that, in that sleep state. So again, some of the protective factors you're co-sleeping are that regulating of milk supply, mom being very in tune with baby in terms of any distress. So, you know, there are documented cases of moms noticing that baby has a fever or baby is spitting up and, or throwing up, you know, in, in their sleep, baby has stopped breathing in their sleep and mom is right there attuned to that distress because of the co-sleeping setup. Co-sleeping can also be protective against SIDS because mom is there again with her breathing, her heart rate, her movements, that is keeping baby, those things are keeping baby regulated.

So baby is very in tune with hearing mom's breathing you know, responding to mom's breathing, heart, heartbeat, all of those things, which keeps baby in that light protective stage of sleep and is protective against SIDS. And the other thing too is that that frequent touch and nervous system regulation is really, really positive for babies developing brains as well. And then, you know, we want to talk about mom's sleep and mom's mental health as well.

That's important here too. I always tell moms like you are not, we don't want to push you to the wayside in this equation. Like it's more, it's important to protect mom's mental health and mom's sleep as well.

But co-sleeping and bed sharing really does benefit mom's mental health and mom's sleep in many ways because it prevents mom from having to get up in the middle of the night and go across the hall to a different room or to be up and down to be getting out of bed a lot. It can be really protective for moms to have baby right there nearby. So those are some of like the protective factors against co-sleeping.

And again, I want to go make sure I go back to how to do it safely because there are lots of ways to not do it safely. And we kind of get this messaging again, that baby should never be brought into the bed. Baby should never be near us when we're sleeping, which leads to moms and dads unfortunately falling asleep with baby in unsafe situation.

So a new mom is told never bring baby into bed with you. So in an attempt to never bring baby into bed, mom might be dozing off with baby in a rocking chair or on a couch or in some other unsafe environment, even like sitting on the edge of the bed. I know lots of moms sometimes will sit on the edge of the bed to like keep themselves awake while they're holding baby.

And that's a risk for mom falling asleep.

Ceridwen

Can I tell you I fell asleep holding my son bouncing up and down on a yoga ball. And I was literally asleep sitting up bouncing and suddenly I opened my eyes. I'm like, Oh my gosh.

Gabrielle

Yep. Yep. It happens.

It happens so frequently. And it's because we have this abstinence based messaging of like never bring baby into bed. But research has shown us that was before I started co-sleeping.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Research has shown us like falling asleep on a recliner, a couch, a yoga ball is vast. Like those situations are so much more risky than safely co-sleeping in like an intentionally prepared bed.

So we always want to have that bed set up. So, you know, have that safe space set up. And again, I know you have another episode on bed sharing, but say, you know, the safe sleep seven, just to briefly go over it is the kind of the main way to approach this.

So we want mom to be a non-smoker sober. So no drinking, no drugs, no alcohol in the system. And breastfeeding is a protective factor for the safe sleep seven.

We want baby to be healthy, full term on their back and lightly dressed. So no swaddle, no heavy, you know, sleep sack or anything like that. We want to make sure baby is not at risk of overheating.

And we want to make sure that baby has their arms and legs free to move if needed and to signal to us if they need help. So we want to make sure those things are available to them. And then we want mom and baby to both be on a safe surface that is a firm mattress with no loose blankets, no duvet covers, no like extraneous, you know, bedding and no pillows that are accessible to babies.

So by that, I mean, mom can have a pillow or two kind of behind her, but we want to make sure that that pillow is not at a risk to baby. So what moms typically instinctually do is get into what we call the cuddle curl position, which is the position on their side, you know, with their arm kind of above baby, baby's at their breast and they kind of instinctually get into this curl position, which is called the cuddle curl and is a very protective and biologically normal position for mom to be in. And again, those pillows and everything are not at risk to baby.

So those things are kind of the basics to set up a safe co-sleeping environment, a safe bed sharing environment, I should say. And it is infinitely more protective and safe to have that set up intentionally prepared ahead of time, then to fall asleep in one of those unsafe environments or to be haphazardly trying to set up a safe bed sharing environment, like in the middle of the night in a sleep deprived state, like not knowing what to do. So I always tell parents, especially new parents, expecting parents, even if you don't have any intentions on co-sleeping, bed sharing, that's totally fine.

That's, you know, up to you. And you, you can, you know, say that you don't have those intentions and that's okay. I would still have the information to know how to bed share safely and set up a safe bed sharing space.

Anyway, do it anyway, just have it there, have it as an option, make sure that you know how to do it and that you have it as an option in case you need it. And in case you have one of those nights where it's three in the morning and nobody slept and you want to bring baby into bed with you, you're not scrambling. You're not doing it in a way that's unsafe or chaotic.

You are prepared.

Ceridwen

I just want to echo Gabrielle here. I don't know if you've heard of that statistic from the Lullaby Trust about the nine and 10 or basically they, there's like research about how 90% and this is in the UK, but 90% of families end up co-sleeping even if they said they never would. Um, which is a huge amount.

And I, I like to say that statistic because I think sometimes parents hear like, Oh yeah, like just in case, like I'm probably not going to, like, even if I thought I would, like, I'm never going to bring my baby in the bed, but actually nine in 10 families do. And I don't, I think people hear that statistic in there. Like that is way higher than I ever expected it would be.

Um, so I just wanted to add that in to echo like absolutely learning about safe bed sharing is essential.

Gabrielle

Yeah. Another interesting statistic. I'm in the U S and the American Academy of Pediatrics takes a very strict stance on no bed sharing.

Um, but research has demonstrated there was a study that the majority of physicians actually bed share at some point to, or bring baby into bed. So even though the American Academy of Pediatrics takes a very strict stance on like no bed sharing, they asked like a, they asked a group of physicians who are also parents, like have you ever brought baby into bed with you? And the majority of them said, yes.

So there's this disconnect between what is being put out there as like the, the best practice or like the standard of care and what is actually happening in the reality. And I think that disconnect is putting parents at a disadvantage because they don't have the confidence or the tools to bed share safely, which ends up being the reality for, like you said, the majority of parents.

Ceridwen

Yeah. The vast majority. Yeah.

Gabrielle

Yeah. At some point they might not do it every night. They might not do it for the whole night, but at some point baby, you know, majority of parents bring baby into bed and they're told that they shouldn't be here, that they don't know how to do it safely.

And moms are left with this message. And again, like they're inherently a danger to their babies, which is just not true.

Ceridwen

And as you kind of explained to us at the beginning of this episode, there's all these reasons where actually it can be protective in some cases. And for, are there any cases where babies should not be co-sleeping where bed sharing would not be considered safe?

Gabrielle

That's a good question. That's a good question. I, I think it's a very nuanced conversation.

And I always recommend parents kind of make their own decisions with this, especially with things like you know, those, those first few months are what am I looking for? I don't want to say the most dangerous cause I don't want to put like a scary lens on this, but babies are most vulnerable in those first couple of months. So we definitely want to be very deliberate about following the safe sleep seven during those initial months.

In terms of like the nuances with having like another parent in the bed, for example, or things like that, those things get a little bit more relaxed as baby gets older and more mobile. And you know, it's not in that, that very vulnerable state. So I usually direct parents to James McKenna's work in his book, safe infant sleep, because he talks a lot about those nuances between you know, different sleeping arrangements and things like that to kind of put it in, in plain terms.

A mom should never be bed sharing if she's under the influence of drugs or alcohol, safe sleep medications, like, you know, sleep medications that are going to impact her ability to respond to her baby or be aware of her baby. Like mom is really, really sleep deprived. So if mom is like very, very sleep deprived and cannot be woken easily, because of the sleep deprivation, bed sharing is not safe.

If mom feels like she yeah, for any reason cannot respond to her baby, I would advise against bed sharing. If your mattress is not firm enough, that's another reason to especially in those early months, we want to have a very firm mattress. So those are kind of the main, the main contraindications.

But there's lots of nuances to this and there's lots of gaps in the research. So for example, just because we don't have the research to say that like, for example, preterm baby though, that there's a lot of nuance with that because we just don't have the research. It doesn't mean that there aren't safe ways to do it, or there aren't benefits to doing it.

We just don't have the research to support it. And that's kind of where we are in terms of learning more about co-sleeping and bed sharing and that mom, baby dynamic.

Ceridwen

Yeah. Cause I know that's kind of one of the safe sleep seven is about being healthy and full term, but there's also kind of those I always kind of like how you said, it's up to every parent and kind of assessing like the entire situation. I also, are you, have you ever heard of the triple risk model?

Yeah, for said, yeah.

Gabrielle

Yeah.

Ceridwen

So I, I kind of like to, I mean, just to a brief over that view of that is just, there's kind of different categories of like you know, something to do with the baby, something to do with the environment, something to do with like the developmental stage baby is in. And it's kind of when all three of these are in a more higher risk. That's when kind of is considered like the most high risk, I guess.

But otherwise I think there is a lot, and I think talking to somebody like you, I'm guessing would be a helpful thing for a parent who's not sure.

Gabrielle

Yeah. Yeah. Me.

Yeah. Me. And there's lots of other co-sleeping, you know, advocates and researchers out there too that have really delved into this work.

And at the end of the day, it comes down to making the most informed decision with the information we have. And there's no cut and dry answer to some of these questions. It really is given the information we have and given the research that we have available and also taking baby and family's individual needs into account, what is the best decision that we can make and how can we best support everyone in the family?

Because there's lots of nuance to this conversation.

Ceridwen

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I'm sure that any moms listening now will be already starting to think about, hold on, maybe this isn't what I heard before.

Or and I think it is because, you know, there are, there is so much nuance to the conversation. And often when we're talking to like every single parent, it does become like kind of this like blanket statement terminology, whereas actually every single family is different and we can't even use this blanket statement about everything. One of those blanket statements that I often hear is about, you know, if you keep your baby so close to you, they'll become dependent on you.

They'll want to be with you all the time. They'll always want to be held. I was wondering if for a mom who might be hearing that at the moment, what would you say to her?

Gabrielle

Yeah, that's a, that's a very pervasive myth. And it is myth is that keeping your baby close is going to harm them or harm their independence. And that is so far from the truth.

We cannot spoil babies. There's no such thing as spoiling babies. They are not supposed to be independent.

They are not supposed to be able to self-soothe or do things on their own. They physically can't, their brains are not developed enough to have those pathways. Babies don't have the brain pathways required to self-soothe until age three at the very youngest.

And that's just them starting to come online at that age. It's not like at age three, they're suddenly able to self-soothe. It's just at age three, the brain pathways for self-regulation and self-soothing start to come online and they continue to develop for the next couple of decades, really.

Like we put up until our twenties. That's when we fully have that fully developed frontal lobe. And so it's a slow progression into being able to self-regulate.

So babies don't know how to self-soothe. They can't do it. We can't expect them to.

And keeping your baby close and nurturing them and providing that co-regulation will never, ever have negative effects because it is so biologically woven into us and to our, our maternal instincts and what babies need. And also woven into the neuroscience of how babies brains develop, which is regular, consistent, repeated co-regulation and nurture and responsiveness. And that, that creates the neural pathways in their brain for them to eventually be able to do it on their own through that repeated co-regulation.

So, and the research, you know, is, is starting to show this as well, is that the benefits, there's benefits of co-sleeping. James McKenna again talks about it in his book a little bit. Some of the benefits of co-sleeping in the research of, in terms of creating adults that are, you know, confident and well-adjusted and have these sort of secure attachments with their primary caregivers and all of that.

And again, there are lots of different factors that go into that. You know, we can't draw point A to point B that co-sleeping creates secure, securely attached adults, but it certainly doesn't hurt. It certainly doesn't harm it.

It doesn't create issues down the line in terms of independence or being able to regulate. It actually really helps, especially in those early formative years where the brain is developing and there's so much going on.

Ceridwen

Oh, wow. So it's, you know, not just, can be like helpful in the present for supporting your baby, but even lifelong. Can we go back to that?

I just wanted to touch on self-soothing a lot. Cause this is a question that I get a lot from new moms is about, you know, they've heard that they should leave their baby, you know, their baby needs to learn how to self-soothe. They need, and, um, that the only way for them to learn to self-soothe is going to be leaving them to figure it out.

Um, whereas what you're saying is completely the opposite, right? About how, um, that the more we support them and help them, um, can you, can you just kind of clarify that part a little bit for a mom who might have heard that myth? Yeah.

Yes.

Gabrielle

Yeah, yes. So right from the jump, the term self soothing has been wildly misconstrued from the research. So even the scientists, the researcher who initially kind of coined the term, his name is Thomas Anders, he has since come out and basically said, like, I didn't mean for the term to become what it what it's become.

He did research on babies and was trying to differentiate between babies who signal and babies who don't signal. So some babies wake up, first of all, all babies enter a lighter stage of sleep in between sleep cycles. So a sleep cycle for a baby is roughly 45 to 60 minutes or so in those early months and years.

So babies enter a light stage of sleep in between those sleep cycles where they do kind of like a needs check. So they take in cues from their internal environment and their external environment and kind of assess, is there anything I need right now? Does anything feel uncomfortable?

Does anything, you know, is anything bothering me? And that can range from like gas and reflux to I just want to know where mom is and I just need to snuggle and I just need to like know that she's still nearby. So it can be a wide range.

Ceridwen

It reminds me of me when I wake up and I'm wondering where my husband is.

Gabrielle

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's a great point because adults also do a needs check in between sleep cycles. You don't notice it because, yeah, we do it too.

And it could be, yes, you know, you try to see where your husband is. You notice you have to go to the bathroom, you need a drink of water, whatever it is. We do that as adults too.

We just don't really register it anymore because we're older and more developed. But babies are very, what am I looking for? Like sensitive to that needs check.

So if there's anything amiss, like they, first of all, they can't deal with it themselves. They can't go get a drink of water. They can't like, you know, recognize that mom is still there.

She's just the next room. They can't do any of that. So what Thomas Anders was trying to research was, are there babies that are signalers and non-signalers?

So there are some babies just based on temperament that will wake up, do that kind of needs check, be like, I'm good. I'm going to go back to sleep by myself. And they are non-signalers.

But there are lots of babies who are signalers. And those are the babies that wake up and signal. They cry, they call out, they need help from mom or dad or whoever to meet some of their needs.

And the important thing here too, is to differentiate between self-soothing and self-settling. So self-soothing has taken on this like definition of being able to regulate from a state of distress. So a baby who is crying and screaming and very upset, clearly distressed, we're told that they should be able to deal with that by themselves.

They should be able to come down from a place of distress by themselves and soothe. And as I mentioned before, they cannot do that. They don't have the brain pathways to do that.

They can't do that. And leaving them to cry or figure it out is not going to teach them how to do that because their brains can't do that yet. The alternative is what's called self-settling, which is babies being able to put themselves back to sleep, but not from a place of distress.

This is a baby who wakes up and kind of is like happy and kind of looks around and is like, okay, I'm still here. I'm in my room. Whatever.

I'm good. I'm going to go back to sleep. They're not crying.

They're not distressed. They're not needing anything. They're not signaling.

They're able to self-settle from a place of calm and go back to sleep. A baby who is signaling, crying, distressed, needing that co-regulation is not able to self-soothe and put themselves back to sleep. They need us and they need that support.

So that whole definition of self-soothing and the language around it and the life of its own that it's kind of taken on has been very, very detrimental, I think, to parents trying to understand this whole thing because we're told, like you said, that babies should be able to sleep independently, that they should be able to put themselves back to sleep and cry it out and figure it out and learn it on their own how to self-soothe.

And that's just not the reality. And it's really, really detrimental, I think, to parents to think that that's the only way that they can get sleep or that it's something they have to do. I think a lot of parents see it as sort of something they have to do because it's like this rite of passage, sleep training and teaching your baby how to sleep and all of that has become a really big buzzword.

And it's just not based in any sort of reality. And it's not necessary. It's not something parents have to do.

Ceridwen

Yeah. I mean, I can attest to that as well. How old is your little one?

He just turned two.

Gabrielle

Okay.

Ceridwen

I mean, I kind of definitely found by two, sleep was vastly different than it was in the earlier years. Yeah.

Gabrielle

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my son's journey has been a little unique because he's had some medical stuff, which is another thing that I'll touch on briefly in terms of sleep training is sleep training tends to ignore any potential extenuating circumstances that might be going on with babies.

So if they have reflux or oral ties or other things that can disrupt sleep, if we're just letting them figure it out alone, we are quieting those signals that something else might be going on with them. And that's not fair to the baby. It's not safe for the baby.

It could actually be very dangerous, especially if they have things going on that are concerns medically, and we're just like ignoring them or not pertaining, you know, not responding to those needs. So my son had some of those things, which is why he's, you know, continues to be kind of a frequent waker. And that's part of the picture too, is like sleep training doesn't get rid of those underlying needs.

It just quiets the signaling. And that is problematic in lots of ways. And I think something that more parents should be aware of and have that informed consent about is like, just because your baby stopped signaling does not mean that they don't need you anymore, that their needs have been met.

Ceridwen

And that, you know, in many cases, it can be really normal that babies would wake up and need that support. And then I think it's like figuring out, is this just normal waking? Or is this kind of something more?

And there's a real trouble. I mean, I don't know exactly your situation, but I know for some families, they will go to the doctor and say, like, you know, my baby's waking, I don't know if this is normal. And rather than kind of investigating, like to decide whether this is normal, the doctor would just go straight to like, oh, well, you just need to sleep train.

And I think this isn't as common now as it used to be. But I know it's still for some, some people.

Gabrielle

Yeah, that was my experience. It's been my experience with my son. Yes, yes, many, many occasions.

And it's problematic in a couple ways. One is it's obviously doing a disservice to the baby because they might be have, they might have something going on that needs medical support or intervention, or, or they just might be a normal baby that needs support overnight and comfort and co regulation. And they're being dismissed or, you know, being told, parents are being told to respond to them in a way that's inappropriate.

So that's the first part is it does a disservice to the baby. And the other thing is it does a huge disservice to the mom, because mom is essentially being told, this is your fault, like your baby is waking so much because you are not doing the right thing, or you're not strong enough to ignore their cries or sleep train them or teach them how to sleep independently, like basically telling mom, this is your fault, and your instincts are wrong. And that is so inappropriate, and so problematic, and does a huge disservice to moms and makes mom feel horrible.

So there's like, it's, it's problematic on lots of fronts.

Ceridwen

So you're then going on to train as a natural neuroscience practitioner. Is that was that kind of what's led you into this?

Gabrielle

Yeah, yeah, it was my own son's experience, for sure. Because I, yeah, he had had trouble with sleep for various reasons, pretty much since he was born. And I kind of reached that four month mark where lots of parents get the message to sleep train, they hear, you know, the form of aggression, or you sleep train, you have to just teach them how to sleep.

Four months is a pivotal point, I think, for lots of parents, in terms of what direction they're going to go in with their baby sleep. And I kind of got to that point with my son and happened to come across Dr. Greer Kirschenbaum's book, like right at that point, which I think was like a sign from above. I found her book in that moment.

Ceridwen

Because I went, you know, I went googling and ended up on the different side of the internet. Yep, yep.

Gabrielle

I, yes, I think it's very easy to end up on the other side of the internet, at that point, especially. And I just happened to I remember, actually, someone had posted about Greer's book, in like the, I was in one of those like due date groups, like, you know, December 2023, babies or whatever. And someone had posted about sleep.

And there was tons of comments about sleep training. And one person mentioned, I would like check out Greer Kirschenbaum's book, Inner to Revolution. And I was like, that sounds interesting.

And I went back and I looked at it. And I was like, this sounds like something I want to read. Yeah.

So I happened to come across her book just at that point. And it set me on the path that I'm on now, both personally with my son and professionally. So yeah, I think it's really crazy how like, one kind of pivotal moment can set you on your path, professionally and personally.

Ceridwen

I'm curious, like, when you're now dealing with, you know, medical dismissive kind of situations, does it at least kind of give you you know, you have that kind of inner confidence because of your training. And I found I found this has been like a really common theme with people that I know who work in baby sleep is like, often, we're doing far more extensive training in sleep that our pediatricians have ever had done themselves. And it becomes it's like, good that we have the ability to have the like, like navigate this landscape, like understand what's kind of going on.

But I think for the moms who you shouldn't have to train, get a professional qualification ourselves to be able to get infancy, but at least now it means that like, you are you have this training. So now you hopefully moms will know that they can come to you for support. And also, I think there are also great pediatricians that also yeah, I don't want to like, put this fear into like, you know, about it.

But it's good. Sorry, I was just gonna say maybe if you have any tips for like a mom who, what are there any like signs she should be looking for? When she does want to if she does want to talk to somebody about sleep about like what, you know, whether it's evidence based or not?

Gabrielle

Yeah, yeah. So again, you should ask your point about like pediatricians to is, yes, you're right. There are some good pediatricians out there.

And at the end of the day, it's a systemic issue. Like pediatricians, just they don't get the training in school on things like lactation and sleep. And so it but they're expected to know everything.

And they're not taught everything. So it's, you know, I, I want to give pediatricians like, compassion where possible, too, because they're kind of expected to know everything like a parent comes to them. And it's like asking questions about every area of infant development.

And they don't get that education, they don't get the right education on no breastfeeding and sleep and these types of things.

Ceridwen

Unless they seek it out themselves.

Gabrielle

Correct.

Ceridwen

Right.

Gabrielle

Yeah, right. But I remember my son's first pediatrician, we actually moved shortly after he was born. But his very first pediatrician when he was a newborn, was also an IV CLC.

And in hindsight, like, I think that's a really great overlap of education to have, you know, the pediatrician education, she was medic, she was an MD, but she also was an IV CLC. And so she was able to help with like, kind of the nuances of early breastfeeding and sleep and, you know, helping my supply regulate and all that, with also the medical side of things. So that's a good tip.

You know, in terms of tips, I think, if you're looking for a pediatrician, you know, if possible, finding one that does have additional certifications and education in things like breastfeeding, sleep, even like, like doula, like doula support, like they have doula training, or, you know, certifications can be really beneficial. Kind of that overlap, because I think a lot of things get lost in the medical system. And they, like you said, they need to seek out additional trainings to get the full picture of baby sleep and development.

Ceridwen

And I think, like, unless you've kind of been through it yourself, you don't always have that motivation to get the extra training. But yeah, it is. But it's, you know, it shouldn't be that way, obviously.

And I love that you bring up this, this systemic, the wider picture of it all, because I do like to remind parents of this kind of the wider context that we're in, when it comes to everything to do with moms and babies. And it's often about support. And it's about the wider systems of support as well.

Yeah, yeah. We've talked about a few baby sleep myths. I was wondering if there were any others that you wanted to touch on?

Gabrielle

Yeah. Um, let me think. So a big one is also drowsy, but awake.

That's one that tends to come up a lot for new parents is this idea of putting your baby down drowsy, but awake, or not supporting them to sleep, like feeding to sleep is a bad habit, rocking to sleep is a bad habit, all these like bad habits that come up in baby sleep world are, are myths. And I would not put too much energy into, into them, because they are not based in reality or biological norms, feeding to sleep, supporting to sleep, helping baby enter that, that safe sleep state is very normal. And I'm here to tell you to give you like full permission to do all those things.

Because I come across a lot of parents who will be like, is it okay that I'm rocking my baby to sleep or that I'm nursing them to sleep? Like I've been told I shouldn't be doing that. And when I tell them, like, yes, you should be doing that.

And you can do that is like such this wave of relief, because it really is the easiest way. And I think a lot of times we tend to make baby sleep harder than it needs to be for really no reason other than like fear of bad habits, which is like not a thing. Fear of them not being able to be independent down the line, which again, is like not a thing.

There's lots of myths too about like, oh, if you go sleep or support your baby to sleep now, like they're going to be in your bed until they're 18 or they're go to college or until they get married or whatever these types of like extremes are. And the truth is like, none of that is true. Like I've never met a baby, an 18 year old or an adult who's still like being breastfed to sleep in their mom's bed.

Because babies mature and develop and in their own time will develop this independence. So I think that's a big one that those myths, sleeping to the night is also a myth that I think comes up a lot. Babies are not supposed to sleep at night.

It's normal for night wakings to happen. Definitely very early on for the first three years, essentially, and sometimes even beyond is normal to it's normal for babies and young children to need our support overnight. So sleeping through the night is not something to strive for.

It's not something to force on your baby. It's not something that is appropriate. And it's not something you need to expect.

And I think just having that mindset going into it can be helpful for parents to like know that it's not something that's expected or something that they need to force or try to achieve. It's not like a milestone that that they need to meet. I'm trying to think what other myth.

Ceridwen

One thing that I was just thinking about is maybe our babies aren't going to be sleeping through the night. But that can also be like sometimes challenging for us. But that's why a lot of us turn to co-sleeping because it's the easiest way.

But one thing that often people will wonder about is the impact on your marriage of co-sleeping. Is that something you might talk about a bit?

Gabrielle

Yeah. And I think that that's an interesting point, because I'm gonna be honest, I see both sides of it. And I see, you know, I have been co-sleeping with my son for a while now.

And as our situation is right now, I sleep with my son in his room and my husband sleeps separately in our bedroom.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Gabrielle

And it's, I understand the concern. Like I miss my husband, I miss sleeping with him. I get the concern about that.

And I think sometimes it's helpful to remember the temporariness of this on the big scale of things. It really is a small blip on the radar in terms of your marriage, your child's life, the grand scheme of things. It feels hard right now.

And it is hard right now. But it's not going to be this way forever. And it is protective of your child's mental health and your mental health as a mom long term.

And I think that those types of things can be helpful reminders. Because I'm not going to sit here and say like, oh, yeah, like sleeping with my son while my husband sleeps in another room has been great for our marriage. Because it's not like it's hard.

It's not what I envisioned. But it also is what our son needs right now. And we're aligned on that front.

And we know that like, it's what he needs and what we have chosen to do to support him. And it's temporary. And I think it's kind of just adjusting your mindset around that is the biggest thing and finding other ways to connect and finding other ways to be present with your partner as much as possible.

And also using that time as like family time. Like for example, my son goes to sleep pretty late right now just because of his nap and you know how old he is and everything like that. So we have a lot of like, late nights where we're all awake as a family.

So like probably like 10pm and then I go to sleep with my son and my husband goes to sleep. So just like rewriting the script around what our time together looks like is like we tried to readjust like, okay, we have longer evenings together as a family. Like how can we spend that time together versus like, Oh my gosh, like, I can't believe he's still awake.

Like, we're gonna have no adult time. We're gonna have no time like to do our own thing. Like it's just accepting it as what it is.

Like he's not gonna my son's not gonna go to sleep at 7pm. And that is what it is right now.

Ceridwen

So just adjusting that Out of curiosity, because we went through it, we it was only about it like it was between like, when my son was really coming up to dropping his nap. And when he actually dropped his nap, it was like maybe three months we had where he was doing like, it started like 9pm bedtime, then it was like 10. And then it was like 11.

And then I'm like, you need to drop this nap. Yeah. But I'm just curious, kind of what do you what do you guys do in those late evenings?

Gabrielle

Yeah, it's hard. And I want to be honest, in the sense that like, I'm not perfect with my son's sleep. So like for I know all the good ways to like optimize infant sleep, but I'm also human.

So like, for example, sometimes, sometimes we do have the TV on at night, like things like that, right? Like I, I know that that screen exposure is probably not the best for him going into sleep. And I try to limit it, but I'm also a human.

And so sometimes you have to see me on in the background. Sometimes we're playing in his room where we're just like playing games or playing with his toys or reading books or honestly going outside like we live in Florida. So it's it's still pretty warm, like even at night.

So we'll go outside and look at like people's Christmas decorations or just like, yeah, or just hanging out like trying to to use the time the best we can. We'll also recognizing that, like, like I said, we're human, we're not perfect. I'm not perfect with my son's sleep.

I try to do the best I can. But yeah, there are certain things that we, you know, it's a give and take.

Ceridwen

Yeah. And I think that's so important, actually, for the pregnant moms listening to hear because I know one of the things that I struggled with, actually, like the most and really impacted my mental health was like, before I had my baby, I was like, I just had such a vision of this, like, I'm going to do everything absolutely perfectly to the T. And then I will be the best mom.

And my baby is going to be the best baby because he'll have had he'll have been raised in the best way. Like, yeah, obviously, lots of like, I didn't realize that the best way also is like different for every single family. But also, it was a real like unlearning for me of like, actually, there, I mean, just that in itself, there is no best way.

And it's often just about kind of balancing the needs of lots of different people. And like, allowing yourself to do what feels best for you in the situation you're in. Actually, that was what like really improved my mental health.

Yeah, rather than kind of like force me and my baby into these expectations I had of like, what a good mom looks like.

Gabrielle

Yeah, absolutely.

Ceridwen

Absolutely. I know. Sorry, go ahead.

Gabrielle

No, I shouldn't say yeah, because I going back to what I said before, too. And especially with my background in like maternal mental health is I think that there's a balance. And I think there are certain things where, like, let's just face it as moms, we need a minute to breathe sometimes.

So like certain things are flexible. And we need to, like you said, not strive to be perfect, because we're not going to be perfect. And I know a lot, a lot of things about infant sleep.

And I know what optimizes it, I know what helps it, you know, be successful, quote, unquote, successful, but I'm not going to do all those things perfectly. And I don't expect the moms I work with to do those things perfectly, because we are living unique lives. And our babies are unique, and our needs are unique.

And we have to do the best we can with the information we have. And that's all we can do.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I also asked about kind of what you were what you did in the evening, because I think it is interesting, we often have like very, it's a very cultural assumption that our babies go to bed at like, between in like, you know, around seven or eight. And that's just such a like cultural assumption. But actually, all around the world, babies don't go to bed at seven.

Gabrielle

Yeah, that's actually quite early for other parts of the world.

Ceridwen

Yeah. Like, you know, later bedtimes are very normal, especially when your babies are still napping and stuff.

Gabrielle

Yeah.

Ceridwen

We're kind of coming up towards the end of the episode now. So I just wanted to check if there was any other anything else that you wanted to touch on before we wrap up?

Gabrielle

Um, I don't think so. I think we kind of talked about lots of stuff, right? Yeah.

Ceridwen

Yeah, this was an amazing episode. I think I really, I really love how we touched on like, what's normal for baby sleep, why they want to sleep close to their moms. You gave us some really great tips about safe baby sleep, and exploring myths.

I always like to ask before we end, if you could go back to your pregnant self pregnant with your first child, and just give her some advice from you. Now, what would you tell her?

Gabrielle

Good question. Um, I was actually thinking about this the other day, because my son just turned to like the other day, his birthday was this week. And I was like, Thank you.

So thinking like, where was I two years ago today, like when he was a newborn. And I remember we had a really, really tough night. The first night we came home from the hospital, my son would not be put down, like he wanted to breastfeed and be on my chest and sleep with me like the entire night.

And I remember being up the entire night, like crying, because I was like, he won't let me put him down. I don't know what to do. And this was before I knew about bed sharing and co sleeping and everything that I know now.

And I wish that I had known when he was born. Like I said, how to set up the bed safely for bed sharing how to like safely keep him close, how to safely have him sleep on my chest, which like I know how to do now. And all these things because that first night home from the hospital was like, still is still in my memory is like a very, very challenging night, like probably one of the hardest nights of my motherhood.

And I think just knowing what I know now about that it was normal for him to want to be close to me that it was normal for him to want to be on top of me and be feeding frequently and all of those things. And knowing how to like safely navigate that would have been life changing in like that first night home from the hospital and some of the subsequent nights. So that's kind of what that's what's on my brain right now, just because it was literally like the two year anniversary of that.

And I feel like my body still kind of remembers. Oh, yeah, those early nights, um, especially that very first night over in the hospital, because I just know I remember, and I was like fighting to stay awake. I was like dozing off while I was holding him like lots of things that were not safe and not helpful for me and my mental health early postpartum.

And I think just knowing how to safely bed share and keep him close to me while also trying to get the rest myself would have been life changing.

Ceridwen

Absolutely. I think that first night. I am a postpartum doula.

I don't know.

Gabrielle

Yeah.

Ceridwen

And I used to offer like virtual overnight support for that through the whole first night home from hospital. Because I had like a really similar experience. And it's it's you're in the hospital and you have like, hopefully you have support in the hospital and then you get home and I was just like, what?

Gabrielle

Well, and honestly, my son, my son slept fine in the bassinet in the hospital. And I know this is normally the second night syndrome.

Ceridwen

I was gonna ask was this the second night?

Gabrielle

It was technically the third night.

Ceridwen

It can sometimes be like second or third. Yeah. And often depending on what time of day they were born and stuff.

Gabrielle

So I like labored so my I went into labor at like 11pm. And I labored like all so I first first of all, I went into motherhood in a sleep debt because I like all night and didn't sleep. So my son was born the following morning at like 8am.

So I lost a whole night of sleep before I was even born. Yeah, I was in labor. And then, and then we spent two nights in the hospital.

So and he slept like in the bassinet he slept okay, those first few nights and it was the third night our first night. Yeah, that was like the most challenging.

Ceridwen

Yeah. And even in the hospital, I was just thinking about I don't know about you, but like, you know, there's people like coming in to do checks. Yeah.

Constantly. So like in the hospital, you end up, I think feeling like the sleep deprivation can add up just like you don't get those long chunks. Yeah, totally.

Gabrielle

Totally. Yeah. So that's it.

Yeah, I think just knowing what to do.

Ceridwen

And just imagine the difference now, like after listening to this episode, hopefully, if you're pregnant, you're gonna go a link, by the way, all of the safety guidelines that we've talked about are going to be linked in the show notes for all the pregnant moms listening. So go ahead over there. And learn about these safety guidelines.

Because if you do happen to be in a similar situation, your second night, third night, and you're completely exhausted, you just need to lie down and go to sleep. And your baby does not want to be apart from you, you'll already have these safety tips in your pocket, you'll know exactly what to do. Hopefully, your bed will already have been set up first.

Yeah, exactly. I don't know if you know anywhere else. The only place I've actually seen bed sharing safety guidelines for while you're still in hospital is in Sweet Sleep by La Leche League.

Gabrielle

Uh huh. Yes.

Ceridwen

Yeah. That's a really, that's also I don't know if we mentioned how like the safe sleep seven. That's kind of like La Leche.

Gabrielle

Yeah.

Ceridwen

Oh, that book Sweet Sleep kind of goes all it really breaks down a lot of the ins and outs of safe bed sharing. Yeah, that's a great book. Were there any I know you had some other resources.

Did you want to?

Gabrielle

Yeah, so I kind of did my favorite book. So I want my favorite book is how baby safe infant sleep by Dr. James McKenna. So that's this one safe infant sleep by Dr. James McKenna. This is a great book. The other one is how babies sleep by Dr. Helen Ball. She's a great resource as well.

The Nurture Revolution by Dr. Greer Kirschenbaum. And my favorite resource for all Things Co-Sleeping is Tiffany at CoSleepy, that's her Instagram handle. And she has lots of free information as well as guides for purchase that I can send you the links to so you can put them in the show notes. But her chest sleeping guide has been a lifesaver for me.

And I think that's something we touched on briefly here, but chest sleeping, which is basically having your baby sleep on your chest while you were also able to sleep, has been life-changing for me because my son only wanted to sleep on my chest. And that was really, really important information for me to have. So I definitely recommend having that information as well.

Ceridwen

Awesome. So if anybody is interested in working with you or what kind of support do you offer and where can they find you?

Gabrielle

Yeah, so I offer one-to-one sleep support. I have two options to work with me. One is a virtual video session, so kind of face-to-face sleep support.

And the other one is asynchronous support. So that's like email, text, voice memo support that's helpful for parents that are chronically nap-trapped or in different time zones or just hard to do that face-to-face. So I offer one-to-one individualized sleep support with no sleep training whatsoever.

It's all based in biologically normal infant sleep, attachment, responsiveness, staying close to your baby, all of those wonderful things that we talked about today. So you can find me on social media. I'm on Instagram at nurturedmom, nurturedbaby with periods in between each word.

And I also have a website where you can find my services and how to reach out to me.

Ceridwen

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. It's been awesome.

I'm really, really excited that we'll have this episode and I'm sure a lot of people will find it really helpful just to even get some insight into what normal baby sleep looks like and what it can, what those, especially those first few weeks, what it can, months and years, what it can look like. So thank you so much. We're gonna be recording our Q&A episode next.

So everyone listening, if you haven't listened to the Q&A episode, the Q&A episode is going to be about mentally preparing for postpartum. And Gabrielle is gonna give us some great info there, I'm sure. So head on over there now and otherwise, well, no, we'll see you there.

Thank you. What a powerful episode. I hope you just take away Gabrielle's understanding that it is so natural and normal for babies to want to be near their parents.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you haven't already, go back and listen to last week's episode where real moms are sharing their stories about why they began bed sharing, because I think it will really help you put all of this into context and also help you understand why it's so important to learn about bed sharing safety guidelines before you give birth, even if you plan on never using them. Once you're ready to start learning about those guidelines, head on over to my baby sleep safety episode.

All of these will be linked in the episode description so you can easily find them there. Thank you so much for listening today. If you're new here, please make sure that you're subscribed or following the podcast and please share with another mom who you think would benefit from this information.

Make sure that you also go over and listen to Gabrielle's Q&A episode where we'll be talking about how to prepare mentally for postpartum challenges. And I will see you there. Bye for now.