Baby Sleep Safety Tips Every Parent Needs to Know

Ceridwen: Before we get into the sleep safety guidelines, I really just want to set the scene for the pregnant mamas who are listening to this who may never have really experienced life with a new baby before and might not really know what to expect when it comes to baby sleep. I think most people will have heard that babies wake a lot a night, but could you tell us a little bit more about this and maybe explain a bit about why babies wake so much?

Katie: What is “normal” infant sleep?

Ceridwen: Thank you Katie for painting that picture for us, and I love how you’ve shown how, when we’re talking about baby sleep, it’s really not just about baby sleep. It’s about safety and feeding and psychology all interlinked together. I think so much of the conversation around baby sleep tends to be about how to get babies to sleep through the night. But actually, you’ve shown us how frequent waking is not necessarily something we need to fix, night waking is completely normal and can even be a protective thing for babies’ safety. And I think that’s a great place to start today’s conversation around baby sleep safety. So, when it it comes to recommendations about baby sleep safety, what exactly are the current guidelines?

Katie: Safe sleep recommendations (room-sharing, surface, bedding)

Ceridwen: Thank you for this overview Katie, and I know we’re going to dive deeper in a moment into the specifics of baby sleep safety in a moment. I just wanted to add in something, because, you know, I’m a lactation counselor so I’m always talking about how connected baby sleep and feeding are. And something I think is really interesting is that the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine has a whole protocol on bedsharing, these are protocols for professionals who are helping with breastfeeding, and basically in that protocol on bedsharing, it’s protocol number 6, it talks about how any sleep arrangement where babies are sleeping separately from their mothers, even if they are in the same room, so basically, any sleep arrangement other than bedsharing puts the breastfeeding relationship at risk. So, not bedsharing can increase risk of low milk supply and early weaning. Even if baby is still in the same room as you. And of course there are nuances in different situations, but for families who want to breastfeed, I think this is just one thing to know about how interlinked sleep and breastfeeding are. And you’ve already touched on that when you talked about James McKenna’s term ‘breastsleeping’, and I love this term because it just shows how breastfeeding and sleep are really one process together.

Just to add one more thing on bedsharing and sleep, the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine’s protocol on bedsharing also mentions how not bedsharing can actually lead to unintentional cosleeping. And I actually made a reel about this like over a year ago, it was a reel about moms accidentally falling asleep on the couch while breastfeeding because they were trying not to bedshare. And I know we’re going to talk about this more, but sleeping with a baby on the couch or sofa can increase their risk of SIDS up to 50 times. That’s a statistic from the Lullaby Trust. And this reel I had made ended up going kind of viral, it got over a million views, because so many moms had been in this situation, and I won’t go into detail but there were some comments on that reel that were really… just really demonstrated how unsafe it can be to cosleep accidentally, where you’re not following any safety guidelines.

Now, I realize I mentioned SIDS there, and for someone who might be new to the topic of baby sleep safety, can you just explain to us a bit more about SIDS, and maybe you can also just talk about why, in general, baby sleep safety matters?

Katie: SIDS vs SUID & the role of sleep surface and environment

Ceridwen: Thank you for that, Katie. Hopefully our listeners will take away from this that there is so much nuance when it comes to sleep safety. When it comes to safe sleep, it’s not just about where they sleep, but it’s about the intention around how that sleep space is set up. I know things are starting to change, but for a long time the message parents got was that they should never cosleep or share a sleep space with their baby, they should only have their baby in a crib and that’s the only place a baby can be safe. But in reality, it’s not just about saying your baby should only sleep in a crib and never cosleep, it’s more that there in very specific situations there are higher risks associated with cosleeping, so it’s more about reducing those risks. And this is so important because, in reality, the vast majority of families do end up cosleeping, even the families who during pregnancy said they never would cosleep more often than not they do at some point end up cosleeping. And that’s why I always tell people to learn about bedsharing safety guidelines, even if you think you’ll never need to use them. It’s better to know them and not need them, than to need them but not know them. So what more can you tell us about bedsharing safety guidelines?

Katie: Safe Sleep Seven

Ceridwen: Thank you for that, that’s such a great overview of the safety guidelines when it comes to bedsharing. We’ve talked about what kinds of things are riskier when it comes to bedsharing, and how to reduce these risks to make bedsharing a safer situation. I’m wondering, are there any other risks we might not have covered already?

Katie: Socio-economic & equity context

Ceridwen: Wow that is really insightful, and it just goes to show that baby sleep, like most things with parenting, really happens within a wider context, and it’s not always just about the choices of individual parents, there’s really a whole system around them that can impact their situation. So, now, we’ve covered some guidelines around baby sleep, and we’ve gone into more detail about bedsharing safety. What if some families can’t follow these guidelines? Are there some families that shouldn’t bedshare at all?

Katie: Bedsharing is not right for everyone

Ceridwen: So, bedsharing can be great for some families, but it’s not for every family. But it still seems like there’s a priority to support closeness between babies and their mothers wherever we can. For the pregnant moms who might be thinking ahead and trying to plan for their sleep arrangements with their baby, can you tell us a bit more about what their different options might be?

Katie: Options for how to sleep near your baby

Ceridwen: I’m a big fan of Greer Kirshenbaum too. I’m really picky when it comes to baby books, but I always say her book the Nurture Revolution is one of my must-reads for new parents. Could you tell us a little bit more about why keeping babies close is so beneficial for their brains and nervous systems?

Katie: Why keeping baby close is so beneficial for brain & nervous system

Ceridwen: Wow, so amazing! I can’t believe how much we have covered in this episode, you have been such a wealth of knowledge Katie, thank you for sharing all of this with us today. For our listeners who have been following along here, what are the main takeaways for them from what we’ve discussed today?

Katie: Summary / key take-aways for listeners

Ceridwen: Thank you so much Katie for joining us today. I have just one more question for you today. I’d love to know, if you could go back in time to when you were pregnant and about to welcome your first baby, what is one thing you wish you could tell yourself?

Katie: 

Transcript

Ceridwen

Hi, and welcome to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. My name is Ceridwen, I'm your podcast host and your guide to preparing for a smoother start to life with your new baby. Here on the Postpartum Prep Podcast, we love to talk about all things from feeding, sleep, newborn care, postpartum recovery, mental health, bonding, soothing, all the things, with an emphasis on talking about the realistic side of what life after birth is actually like to help you prepare with confidence.

Today on the Postpartum Prep Podcast, we have Katie Fridge from Sleepy Starts. I am so excited to have Katie here today, she's going to be talking about sleep safety guidelines when it comes to babies, how can we practice safe sleep strategies, what do we need to know about where our baby sleeps, and how to support sleep in a way that really nurtures their development and their need for connection. Baby sleep safety is so important, and in this episode, Katie really breaks down for us all the essential guidelines that you need to know as you're preparing to welcome your baby into your home.

If you're new here, make sure you hit subscribe so you never miss a new episode, and let's get straight to it. Katie, would you give us a little bit of an introduction about yourself and what got you into this work? Yes, absolutely.

Katie

I am so happy to be here asleep, I am so passionate about, everyone always asks me, Katie, when did you start? When did you go and become certified? And the answer is after I had my first child, it was a very surprising circumstance where you couldn't just swaddle them and lay them down to sleep, and everything just happens like that.

I had no idea what went into baby sleep, I had no idea what to prepare for, I had no idea what was considered safe and unsafe, and just kind of stumbled upon information along the way, which I think is how truly a lot of moms end up where they do, or how they find rhythms that work for them, but what if we could all come into infant sleep already knowing our options, already knowing what's safe and unsafe, and being able to operate from that when our brains are so tired, we've just gone through labor, and given birth, our brains are not 100% capacity, so what if we all were able to go into it? Instead of Googling at 2am, being like, why is my baby not sleeping? So my sweet first child is definitely what got me into this.

Ceridwen

Yeah, and I think I hear you, and that's exactly kind of why we're recording this podcast episode today, right? About setting up those realistic expectations, and hopefully avoiding the Google trap, because that is real. Yes.

And I guess we just wanted to start today, we're talking about sleep safety guidelines, and I really just want to set the scene for the pregnant mommas who are listening, who may have never really experienced life with a new baby before, just like you, and they might not know what to expect for sleep. I think most people will have heard that babies wake a lot at night, but can you just tell us a bit more about this, and maybe explain why babies wake so much at night? Yeah, definitely.

Katie

So talk about normal infant sleep. I think this is something, you know, I'm sure your listeners are from everywhere, but in Western culture, in the US especially, we just have a very confused idea about what normal infant sleep looks like. So kind of, let's draw that back a little bit, let's forget everything we know, let's bring it back to what is biologically normal.

So yeah, the reality is babies do wake very frequently at night, especially in the beginning. This is extremely biologically normal, it is not a problem or something that we need to change, it is just their physiology, it's how they're wired, and it's actually what is good for them. So there's lots of reasons babies wake up.

One, you know, they have a small stomach, they're digesting quickly. Number two, yeah, they get hungry, they have other physiological needs like, you know, maybe they're too hot, they're too cold, they need a diaper change. Then there's developmental milestones where, you know, we're waking up in the middle of the night for two hours, and it's freaking the mom out, because we're like, what happened?

Like, why are you not eating? And babies need comfort, and they need closeness, and that is a true, genuine need, and that is a valid reason to wake up in the middle of the night as well. So at the very beginning, like, we can expect a lot of nursing, a lot of cluster feeding, especially if you're breastfeeding.

On-demand feeding is so extremely important. So just some reasons for that is, you know, obviously it supports milk supplies. This is, I think, one of the things you talk about a lot, and I think that's so great.

It helps meet babies' metabolic and brain growth. So not only are we, you know, keeping them full, but then we're also helping their brain to actually grow. That closeness that you're giving them is also like making millions of neural connections a second, which is so cool, and it helps regulate infant physiology.

So it's regulating their breathing, it's regulating their temperature, it's regulating their heart rate. So any time we keep baby close and we're able to frequently nurse them or feed them, this, we see all these things happen. It's really, really amazing, and it also supports the mother-baby sleep and feeding rhythm.

So the more, the closer that you keep your baby, the more that they wake up at night is actually good because it has protective effects. So James McKenna is like top-tier researcher in the field of sleep. He is absolutely incredible.

He has the book Safe Infant Sleep, which I recommend to just about everybody. It's absolutely phenomenal. Yeah.

But him and his colleagues found in specifically co-sleeping context, but the mothers and the babies wake up about three times more than if a baby was to sleep in a different room. And this was super helpful to fight against SIDS, and it supported the mother-baby feeding relationship better than anything else because they were frequently waking to continue that relationship.

Ceridwen

Yeah. Wow. That's, I think it paints a really clear picture for us about, I love about why babies wake at night, and I just love how when we're talking about baby sleep, you've really shown it's not just about baby sleep.

It's about safety and feeding and psychology all linked together. And I think so much of the conversation around baby sleep tends to be just about how do we get babies to sleep through the night? And that's a real concern.

But actually you've shown us that frequent waking is not necessarily something we do need to fix. And night waking is completely normal and can even be a protective thing for baby's safety. Absolutely.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Katie

If I could just jump in with another quote from James McKenna, he says, the human infant is born with only 25% of the adult brain volume. We might want to question why infants protest sleep isolation. They may be acting adaptively rather than pathologically.

So lots of fancy research language there. But basically he's saying there's a reason babies can't handle being apart from us. We are their survival.

We are the reason that they thrive. So it's really, really important that they're waking frequently. And I just think it's so cool.

We're just not, we're not born in full capacity, of course, we're babies. And it's just so cool that the mother has the ability to nurture that.

Ceridwen

Oh, absolutely. And I just, yeah, I'm really grateful that we started here understanding actually what is normal for baby sleep, because I think it sets us up for realistic expectations as we're coming into our main conversation about sleep safety guidelines. So why don't we move there now?

Can you give us just like an overview? What are the current recommendations around baby sleep safety? What are the current guidelines?

Yes, absolutely.

Katie

So the AAP's current recommendation says, keep your baby's sleep area in the same room where you sleep for at least six months, ideally a year. So this means that whatever your sleeping arrangement, ideally baby is in the same room with you. This is, you know, shown to be protective against SIDS, again, helpful with the feeding relationship.

And then other general safe sleep guidance is place baby on their back to sleep, use a firm mattress, that one's super important, no soft bedding, pillows, blankets, stuffed animals or lovies, keeping the sleep surface clear at all times, and then avoiding overheating. So this can be done by dressing baby lightly, avoiding fabrics like fleece. And then ideally, we're keeping the room temperature between 68 to 72 degrees Fahrenheit.

I translated this because I know not everybody's Fahrenheit, 20 to 22 degrees Celsius.

Ceridwen

Awesome. Thank you so much. Can you say that again?

I think I might have spoken over you.

Katie

Oh, no, you're good. 20 to 22 degrees Celsius.

Ceridwen

Awesome.

Katie

Yeah. And then I just want to pause here and clarify some definitions because I think going forward, we'll need to split these up a little bit. So we have room sharing, bed sharing and co-sleeping that we'll be chatting about a lot on this episode.

So room sharing is when baby sleeps in the same room as parents, but on a separate sleep surface or same sleep surface. It kind of covers all of them, but usually a separate one. Bed sharing is when a baby and parents share the same surface on an adult bed.

And then co-sleeping is sharing any surface with an infant safely or unsafely. And this is why the narrative around co-sleeping can be super intense. And the numbers really get mixed up with these terms because of how so many things are lumped into co-sleeping.

And yeah, it can be done safely or unsafely. So, you know, that's important to know as we go forward and to be able to separate those three terms.

Ceridwen

Awesome. Thank you so much. I think that's a really great overview.

And we're going to dive deeper into the specifics of baby sleep safety in a moment. And I love how you separated out bed sharing from co-sleeping because, you know, there are such different risks depending on where you're actually sleeping with your baby. And that's a really important distinction to make.

And actually, the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine, they have a protocol about bed sharing. And their whole protocol actually is really interesting because it does talk about how any sleep arrangement other than bed sharing, even if it's in the same room, it can put a risk on the breastfeeding relationship. So things like low milk supply and early weaning actually increase for families who are not bed sharing.

But another thing about the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine that I just wanted to tie back in to that co-sleeping versus bed sharing conversation. The Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine, they have a whole protocol on bed sharing and it talks about how not bed sharing can lead to unintentional co-sleeping. And I think this is kind of what we were getting at.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

If you're not bed sharing, you can unintentionally fall asleep somewhere like a sofa, maybe. And the Lullaby Trust has a statistic about how falling asleep on a couch or a sofa or something like a recliner or something like that can increase the risk of SIDS up to 50 times. And I had made a reel about that and it ended up going viral because so many people were commenting about, you know, I don't want to go into detail, but so many people were commenting like kind of scary stuff that had happened because they were trying so hard to avoid bed sharing that they ended up in really unsafe situations.

And it just demonstrated how unsafe it can be to co-sleep accidentally where you're not following any baby safety guidelines. But like you've already touched on, there are just so many nuances between breastfeeding and sleep. And there's also so much nuance when it comes to SIDS and talking about SIDS, I think for someone who might be new to the whole conversation of baby sleep safety, can you explain a little bit more?

Because we keep talking about SIDS and I think maybe we should explain a little bit about why in general baby sleep safety matters, what SIDS means. Could you give us a little bit of a lowdown on that?

Katie

Absolutely. I love that you bring all of that up. It's so important, I think, when we're talking about the narrative behind what feels kind of the fear in baby sleep.

James MacKinnon has also put out a beautiful paper that suggests that bed sharing may be the reason that breastfeeding decreases the risk of SIDS, which I think is so lovely, fascinating. OK, so let's define some of our terms again. So Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, SIDS, is the sudden unexplained death of an infant under one years old without clear cause after investigation.

However, there is also SUID, which is Sudden Unexpected Infant Death. And this is a broader category that includes SIDS, but also includes deaths from asphyxia, entrapment, overlay, suffocation in unsafe environments. So this is important as we're about to break down these numbers a little bit.

So a super cool study done in the UK in 2017 really kind of brought all of these things under one paper to give providers so that way providers could share more SIDS information. And then we can link this for anyone who's interested in looking at this. But essentially, 2017 UK data said that around 50 percent of SIDS babies died while sleeping in a cot or a moses basket.

So 50 percent of SIDS cases happened essentially in a crib. So if we're just looking at it just like that, that would not inherently say that co-sleeping is more dangerous than crib sleeping, if that makes sense in relation to SIDS. Right.

Yeah. OK. And so then around half.

Yes. The other half were co-sleeping. However, 90 percent of the ones that were co-sleeping died in hazardous situations that were largely preventable.

Hmm. This is like so mind blowing to me, because that means that only 10 percent of those co-sleeping cases were actually SIDS. The other 90 percent was this SUID, this sudden unexpected infant death.

And they are misclassified. So that made the numbers really tricky because then everyone was like, oh, you know, co-sleeping is dangerous. And yeah, co-sleeping can absolutely be dangerous if we're doing it without preparation, if we're doing it without knowing what is safe.

Ceridwen

Can I just close you there? Yeah, go ahead. You just mentioned how it meant that these deaths were being misclassified.

Can you explain a little bit about what you mean by misclassified in this situation?

Katie

Yes, for sure. So they were being classified as SIDS, which is unknowing the cause of death. Right.

When they should have been classified as SUID, which is just an unexpected death because these hazardous situations were causing things like suffocation and entrapment. It's like really an intense language to use, which, you know, it makes me want to like run past it. But the important part here is that 90 percent of those cases were completely preventable.

And that's why we're doing this podcast, right? So we can share those guidelines so that we can prevent cases like this and help parents prepare for safe sleep instead of feeling so scared to ever do it that they end up doing it unfaithfully like we've been before.

Ceridwen

Oh, yeah. OK. Thank you for that, Katie.

Hopefully our listeners will take away from this that there just is so much nuance when it comes to sleep safety. It's not just about where they sleep. It's about the intention around how that sleep space is set up.

I know that things are starting to change, but for a long time, the message parents got was really just that they should never go sleep or share a sleep space with their baby. But in reality, like we've been talking about, it's not just about saying your baby should only sleep in a crib and never go to sleep. It's more that there are very specific situations that there are higher risks associated with co-sleeping.

So it's more about reducing those risks, which is what we're going to talk about today. But this is just so important. I really wanted you to come on and talk about this.

And I know you already know this, but because the vast, vast majority of families do end up co-sleeping. And this is something that most families I talked to before birth, the thing that they say is they're never going to co-sleep. In reality, most families actually do.

And it's so much better to be prepared for that and not need the preparation than to end up in an unsafe situation, bed sharing or co-sleeping in an unsafe situation.

Katie

Yeah, I think the statistic is nine out of ten parents co-sleep at least once, whether they meant to or not. And that should be a huge wake up call for parents to be like, OK, let me at the very least know safe sleep guidelines so that way I can know what to do if I come into that scenario, whether I plan to co-sleep or not.

Ceridwen

And I think the really scary part about that statistic is, is whether they planned to co-sleep or not. And we know that the situations where they are just falling asleep accidentally with their baby are going to be the higher risk situations. Absolutely.

Yeah. So we've talked about why it's so important to prepare for bed sharing, whether you plan to or not, and prepare safely. Can you walk us through a few of those bed sharing safety guidelines?

Absolutely.

Katie

So we have what we call the safe sleep seven. This is largely from the legend, but it's also based in research done by James McKenna, and it is the absolute gold standard for bed sharing. So when you're trying to find, OK, safe sleep information, like at the very least, if you can't remember anything else, Google allegedly.

They're incredible. OK, so I'll go through the seven now. So the first one is you.

And also, this applies to anyone else in the bed as well. So you are a nonsmoker. You are sober and unimpaired.

You are breastfeeding. Your baby is healthy and full term. Baby is on their back.

Baby is lightly dressed and not swaddled. And finally, and very importantly, and I think this gets missed a little bit. You are on a safe sleep surface.

So for a mattress, you know, no gaps, no pillows nearby and no heavy blankets, no sofas, no armchairs, waterbeds, loungers, swings, car seats, all of the things like all of these little things.

Ceridwen

And I think it's a long one. Yeah. Yeah.

That last one is the one it's kind of there's like the safe sleep seven. But then that one about the safe sleep surface, there's a lot of little details that go into that one. Hopefully, I think we're going to talk about them a bit more.

Katie

Yes, absolutely. So if at any point you're like, wait, OK, where do I get this information? I also have a free bed sharing basics guide on my website, so we can link that as well.

But it just is like you can print it out. It has pretty graphics, so you can put it on the fridge. So whenever you have your baby, you're not like running around trying to find this information, but it's like already posted and ready for you.

Ceridwen

Yes. All of Katie's stuff, by the way, is beautiful. So I have no doubt that this graphic a gorgeous addition to your kitchen fridge at the very least helpful.

Katie

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

So really quick, I would love to just share some of the benefits of bed sharing, if that's OK to share.

Ceridwen

Yes, I would love to. Yes.

Katie

OK, great. So, you know, we talk about doing it safely and parents always not always often with people, parents often end up in this situation and they don't expect to. But I also want to talk about like the really beautiful good side of it.

Mm hmm. Safely. So one really great thing is that you're waking up less fully whenever you're sharing the same sleep space as your baby, because you're not having to get up and walk across the room to take care of your baby.

And this is really important for mom's maternal healing and baby healing afterwards as well, because you're not getting up and moving as much, you're able to just rest and be still and respond to your baby immediately.

Ceridwen

Are you familiar with? Oh, sorry, I was going to say, are you familiar with Kathleen Kendall Tackett? Oh, it doesn't ring a bell.

No, she wrote an awesome book that I'd love to recommend. What was it called? I can't remember off the top of my head right now.

I can link it in the show notes. But she does she's done a lot of research into maternal mental health with breastfeeding. And one of the things she talks about is just that bed sharing and breastfeeding together when breastfeeding moms are bed sharing.

They have the best mental health out of like any other group, which is. Yes, I think I think probably. And also that they just get more sleep than any other group.

Katie

So, right. Yeah, it's all very interconnected. Dr. Greer Kirshenbaum has the book, Nurture Revolution, which I think probably follows a very similar stream of ideas there. But she is I'm going to talk about her a little bit, too. She's a neuroscientist, basically. So everything she writes about is rooted in neuroscience, which like my brain loves.

I just love learning about how neuroscience matches our instincts. It's so cool. But she talks a lot about how, you know, responding to your baby isn't spoiling them, it's shaping their brains for resilience and mental health for future generations.

So every moment that you spend nurturing your child and being close to them is literally building millions of connections in their brain. And, you know, this is all strongly backed by neuroscience. But what's so cool is just that keeping them close and doing what feels natural to you is truly the best thing you can do for their thriving brain.

It's so cool.

Ceridwen

Mm hmm. Yeah. I think this is amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. After I read her book, like it completely changed.

My son was two by that point, but it just gave me so much more. You know, I had a very stressful journey with my son's sleep, mostly because of just unnecessary ideas, misinformation, myths about same girls. Same.

And after reading her book, I just I felt like I just had permission to just ignore all of the BS and just focus on what was right for my son and just focusing on connecting with him. And even now, like if he's not falling asleep, I'll make sure that I'm just trying to focus on actually relaxing my own body and just hoping that he mirrors that.

Katie

And yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think that is the journey of a lot of us.

It's definitely my journey, too. And like why I got into this is because it is hard and you don't know what to listen to and it feels confusing. But just knowing that we can trust our instincts and that is what's best for them is my blind.

Anyways, that's a tandem for probably a different day. But OK, so some other notes here is like you said, I think you mentioned this. The goal is not to eliminate all risk.

That would be impossible. But it is to reduce known risk factors and to support baby's biological design. And so this looks like keeping them close, feeding them often and arousing with them at the same time while avoiding hazards.

So making sure that you take in these basic seven and all of these extra general safety guidelines that we've talked about and implement them. And I do think that just helps moms doing everything that they can do to reduce risk helps them feel less anxious about leaping the first place.

Ceridwen

So we're right now we're talking about the benefits of bed sharing. Is that right? Yeah, I kind of kind of I'm going everywhere here.

No, I just wanted to point out like one of those benefits, which as a bed sharing mom myself, I really experienced is that waking when your baby wakes, I'm not 100% sure the actual science behind that. I believe there is something. I don't know if you.

Katie

Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Some people call it the two second rule, like within two seconds of your baby waking, you'll you will wake as well. And that's mainly with bed sharing. Mainly, yes, specifically with bed sharing.

And it's actually really cool. Many parents will self-report that doing this has allowed them to actually save their baby in one circumstance or another. So if their baby was, for some reason, stopped breathing for a second, the mom in her sleep has adapted to her baby sleep and how they're sleeping together and can instantly respond to that unconsciously.

So her body will wake her up, pick up her baby. And it has saved multiple babies on many occasions. And parents will self-report this.

And I just think that that is so fascinating that that waking up is actually really good because you're able to monitor baby in a way that you couldn't if they were even, you know, 10 feet from you.

Ceridwen

True. You know, I'd love to talk on this podcast about mother's intuition. And like this is a perfect, clear example of that.

Mother's intuition and action is like a real tangible thing. You're just so in tune with your baby. You absolutely.

It's amazing. Yeah.

Katie

Yeah. Yeah. And final, final thing I'll touch on here is just bed sharing is strongly associated with breastfeeding continuation.

And that's very reputable research that, again, bed sharing is part of the reason why bed sharing reduces SIDS. And that could be like we just talked about, because the mom is able to respond so quickly to whatever baby is experiencing.

Ceridwen

Hmm. Great. Well, thank you so much for that.

I think that's a really good introduction to why are we maybe talking about bed sharing, not just from like a point of view of reducing risk, but actually could there be any benefits? And I think both of us as bed sharing moms, I think we can just even speak from a personal experience like I love most of the time. I love bed sharing.

Katie

Right.

Ceridwen

And even if I even if I didn't love bed sharing all the times, I always knew, especially when my son was younger and waking every hour, how much easier it was to just roll over, stick a stick, a boob in his mouth and go back to.

Katie

Right. Yeah. Not just easier, but good for them, too, which, you know, is the most fun part for me to think about because I have something that is helpful for a mom, especially in the early days.

It's also good for a baby.

Ceridwen

Mm hmm. And I think for anyone who is familiar with my brand mother, mother, baby well being, this is exactly what we're talking about. It's like the things that are good for our babies tend to be good for us, too.

And it's because we are just so connected in that way. So thank you for all of that, Katie. I think it's such a great overview of the safety guidelines when it comes to bed sharing and why bed sharing can even be beneficial.

We've talked about what kinds of things are riskier when it comes to bed sharing and how to reduce these risks to make bed sharing a safer situation. I'm just wondering if there's any other risks that we might not have covered already.

Katie

Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up. You know, of course, there are many things and there's always things that we're still researching and figuring out. But one thing is super interesting to me.

The CDC has this graph. And if you Google it, you can Google CDC socioeconomic bids graph, essentially. We're going to link it.

I'll link it as well. We can link it as well. Yeah.

But that'll come up immediately. And it's an S.U.I.D. graph, so it's an unexpected infant death graph. And it's genuinely jaw dropping to me.

Like if you like, I just want you to Google it now while we're listening, because it's so mind blowing. But the graph clearly shows that the rates of S.U.I.D. and bids vary by race, ethnicity and income. Which is just mind blowing, right?

Because, you know, those things often are linked to, OK, do we have access to quality care? Do we have access to education? And then we also want to talk about like cultural norms, like different cultures have different cultural norms.

And like everything is just so important to take into consideration when we're talking about S.U.I.D. here, because this is not inherently biological to or like the risk is not biological to race. Like that wouldn't make any sense.

Ceridwen

Right.

Katie

But it is systemically mediating. So, you know, one thing I always like to say, like S.U.I.D. is not racist, but the systemic information gap absolutely is. So the reality is just that some ethnicities and race groups are not getting access to the same information, which is why, again, sharing safe sleep guidelines is so important for me because.

You know, so many cultures, vision is absolutely the norm. Do they know that there are some things that can be done to reduce risk? You know, maybe not.

We can share that. But then we also have to consider, OK, there are so many families everywhere whose income does not allow them to buy a separate crib for the baby, does not allow for their baby to have a separate sleep space, definitely not a separate room. These things are just very unrealistic.

So when we're talking about safe sleep, a one size fits all approach of, you know, put baby on the back in their crib. It just doesn't work, right, because then we're leaving out a significant group of people, and those are the people who are already experiencing an information gap. Indeed, safe sleep information that is practical for them more than anybody else.

I'm just I'm trying to be very, like, respectful of how I say this, because, like, it's upsetting. Like, the reality is that we are kind of targeting a group of people who are already struggling unintentionally when those are the people who need access to safe bed sharing guidelines more than anybody else. And it's not being shared because of how our culture is right now.

Ceridwen

And I think you mentioned it was was that that was a CDC report. Yes. So for anyone who might be from other places in the world, CDC is the US government, so this is going to be a study based in the US.

Katie

Exactly, yes. And if you’re unfamiliar with our government, our government is very strongly in the baby on their back, in a crib, away from you kind of situation. It’s not a let’s share about cosleeping. So the fact that the CDC has this graph out is what makes it so impactful to me, because it’s their own data that is suggesting this, while also their recommendations are kind of different if that makes sense. Part of that is, it just does take a long time for what we know to catch up with what is in practice. But that’s like part of our job right, is to help bridge that information gap, so that way all of these safe sleep guidelines catch up with what we already know and see to be true. So, that’s why that’s so important for me to talk about, because it’s just jaw dropping to me, it’s mindblowing to me, and it’s frustrating that this isn’t talked about more, because we’re just excluding people inherently just because of their income level, you know?

Ceridwen

Because maybe they’re not getting the same level of access to education or support or care as other populations?

Katie

Yeah, exactly, because they can't afford it or it's not available in their area is another real thing. And this is true across, you know, any country. Like, I live in a first-world country and I am very, like, blessed and grateful for that.

I don't experience a lot of hardship in my life, but that's not the reality everywhere. And the people who are living in those circumstances deserve to know safe sleep information, not just in a separate crib, because likely that's not a practical option for them.

Ceridwen

And then we also have, I mean, around the world, I think it's also important to put, just because I'm aware, I don't know where people are listening to this information, listening to this podcast, where they might be, that kind of this study was done within the US population, right? And then every country, and there's some countries where bed sharing, in case you're not, you know, I'm thinking, I didn't know this when I first had my baby, that there's other countries in the world, you know, in the US, in the UK, it's very common that you just, the main thought of where your baby sleeps is they sleep in a crib, but there's loads of, the majority of the world, it's not a crib that babies sleep in.

It is just normal to expect that they would be bed sharing with their mom.

Katie

Yeah, it's not even a thought.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I don't know kind of what the, I don't know anything about statistics, but my understanding is that in these countries, perhaps the SIDS levels are lower in these countries, but I don't know if you know anything about that.

Katie

Yes. No, so I don't obviously have exact numbers pulled up. But no, absolutely.

There are many countries where bed sharing is the norm, and SIDS is not the same there. That does not mean that there are not SUIDs there where, you know, a baby is experiencing entrapment or suffocation because of an unsafe sleep scenario. But yeah, it's just, it's completely different.

Ceridwen

So it's just, it really just shows like baby sleep and like most things with parenting, it really happens within a wider context. And it's not always just about the choices of individual parents, there's really a whole system around them that can impact their situation. Yeah, absolutely.

Katie

And I feel like that just goes to show that parents need options rather than a one size fits all mandate, not just because of what's realistic for families, but also every baby is different. Every parent is different, not something that's going to work for you is going to work for somebody else.

Ceridwen

And I think it really goes back to thinking about even like the politics of parenting and how in order for people to have that really individualized care, they need individualized information, they need to receive that individualized care, which needs funding. And I know in the US, to where I live, where it's like, it's all self paying in terms of healthcare, you can have insurance, but you also have to pay for insurance.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

Yeah. So exactly, right. It's all within a wider picture.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

And actually, this kind of makes me think about we've talked a little bit about some safety guidelines around baby sleep and about we've gone into more detail on bed sharing safety. So what if there are some families who fall into those categories, or they just know that they're not going to be able to follow the bed sharing safety guidelines? Are there some families that shouldn't bed share at all?

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Katie

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say there's kind of two streams of thought here, you know, you have the parents who just genuinely don't want to bed share, maybe it just doesn't feel right to them, it just doesn't fit their lifestyle. Whatever it is, bed sharing is not right for them.

That's totally okay. And cool. You also need to know your options and know how to do it safely.

Just in case, like we said, you know, situation comes up, we don't want to be doing unsafely. And then we also have the other stream of thought where maybe you're using medications, maybe you're using drugs, maybe you're smoking or alcohol, or you experience extreme fatigue. And these are all things that would make the parent unsafe in a bed sharing situation, because you would not be able to be as alert and aware of your baby.

Ceridwen

Sorry, I was just gonna ask you about the medications. Can we specify like, what kind of medications?

Katie

Yes, absolutely. Not just any medication in general, but medication specifically that would make you go into a very deep sleep that would make you hard to rouse in the middle of the night. Or that is specifically for, I guess, sleeping more intensely than you normally do.

So we just don't want to be taking anything or doing anything that is going to impair our ability to react quickly to our baby.

Ceridwen

A common one that I, because as a postpartum doula, I work with families, sometimes immediately after they've given birth, and sometimes parents are having like painkillers that make them really, really drowsy. And that can, that's another example of a medication that could make bed sharing less safe. Yeah.

Katie

Yeah, definitely. And that's, you know, when we want to talk about our options, which we'll talk a little bit after this too, there's more than just, you know, do this or don't do this option. So some other things is baby is preterm or low birth weight.

This is a very nuanced gray area. And I'd be happy to do a consultation with anybody who's in that situation who wants to talk about that a little bit more. But so bed sharing carries a higher risk for any of these groups and may not be recommended.

Even when families desire to share a sleep surface, they may choose a safer alternative if they are in one of these groups. So that could be, you know, room sharing with proximity, especially if bed sharing is not advised for them. And then this is all very consistent with James McKenna's work as well.

So if you're like, show me the research, bring back the research, it's always James McKenna. He really is our leading guy. We love him.

Ceridwen

Yeah. And honestly, and like anything you read about bed sharing or baby sleep, he's, you can almost guarantee he's going to be cited there.

Katie

Absolutely. Yes. Always, always.

So bed sharing can be safe if risk factors are minimized, but it's not inherently safe for everyone. So, you know, this is very, when it becomes individualized, we can't just say this is unsafe for everyone.

Ceridwen

You know, it really does take. Sorry, I was just going to ask, are you familiar with the triple risk model?

Katie

Yes.

Ceridwen

I'm across. I can't think of the term. It's like a very general, just like there's different categories of kind of risks.

And it's like, if you have in all three of these categories, I maybe I'll have to try and link it in the show because I can't think of what these categories are off the top of my head, but it is things like, it's like environmental factors and it's things like personal factors.

Katie

And I can't remember the other one, but it makes sense. And I think that's great for just trying to figure out like, okay, is this generally a good idea or a bad idea? However, everything is a little bit more nuanced and everyone's life is completely individual.

So if you're really struggling with like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure if this part of my life makes this safe or unsafe for me. That's when I reach out to a professional and just do a consultation and be like, Hey, can we talk through this? Because everyone's life truly is unique and we're not all experiencing the same parenthood or motherhood by any means.

Ceridwen

Yeah, exactly. And so bed sharing can be great for some families, but it's not always for every family. And whether that's because of safety risks or even just preference, and this is absolutely what you're talking about.

It's just really personal. But regardless, it still seems like there is a priority to support closeness between babies and their mothers wherever we can. For the pregnant moms who might be listening and thinking ahead, trying to plan for their sleep arrangements with their baby.

Can you tell us a bit more about what their different options might be?

Katie

Yeah, absolutely. So like we talked about before, baby, ideally is staying in the same room with you for the first six months, even better the first year. And so some of your options can include chest sleeping, which I don't even think we've talked about at all yet.

But this is where a mom is semi elevated, baby is on her chest, there's no pillows propping her arms, there's no pillows, you know, around her or anything. The best thing is just like a firm wedge pillow that she's laying so she can be semi elevated and baby's on her chest. So that is one option.

This you would also need to be following the rest of the bed sharing guidelines as well. Another option is bed sharing safely when conditions allow. So again, important to have a firm mattress, no gaps, no pillows or blankets near baby, you have an alert adult.

And this could be on a floor bed or it could be up on a bed frame, it's kind of up to you there. Another option is you can have a sidecar crib. So some people do this where they take one side down of their full size crib and they hook it to their bed.

If you do this, you have to be very, very specific in how you do it and make sure that that sidecar is not going anywhere. Because if it's not meant for it, that can be super dangerous because the mattresses can drip and then cause gaps that could cause issues.

Ceridwen

So if we have there are specific cribs that are designed for this, but not every crib is like designed for this.

Katie

Exactly. Yes. So if you have one designed for it, great.

Still be mindful though, if you see any gaps, we need to be packing those gaps with like firm rolled towels. That way the entire surface is flush and baby has nowhere to like get caught in.

Ceridwen

You don't want the baby to roll down into that gap. Exactly.

Katie

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Another option is a bedside bath and net. So this is where baby's on their own surface, but it's adjacent to parent's bed. Another option is a mini crib.

You can have a mini crib next to the bed. You could have it anywhere in the room or a full size crib as well. So those are kind of all of your different options of what you could be doing.

The reality is you're going to be up multiple times a night, no matter what. So the less walking and level changing that you do, the better it is going to be for your recovery. And the closer that you are, the more likely you are going to arouse for baby's needs and arouse quickly for babies.

Um, one thing I will never suggest, and this is not, I think, frequently talked about, but it is a bassinet that rocks the baby for you. Um, so this leaves baby oftentimes unintended because parents are like, cool, you know, bassinets rocking baby to sleep for me. I'm going to go like get a snack or something.

Um, it just the novelty of it can override safety. Um, especially in the first year of life, baby thrives on your touch. They thrive on the sound of your voice.

They thrive on, um, the regulation that your heart and your skin provide them. And so adding in something like a self rocking bassinet is just going to kind of pull you away from baby more in an unintentional way. And just kind of leads to unintentional consequences where, um, if you were keeping baby closer, you know, we just, we want to keep them closer for them to thrive more.

So that's one thing that I'm always like, no, don't get the self rocking bassinet. It's really not serving you at all.

Ceridwen

And I mean, I'm in agreement, even from a breastfeeding point of view, if we're soothing babies and putting them back to sleep more than they would naturally wake, we're going to be missing feeds. And I think that for me is a big red flag. I have other, um, episodes today, even in the last episode, my episode on galactic dogs, I think that was episode 17.

Um, I'll try and link it in the show notes. I talked a lot about the importance of feeding on demand for supporting milk supply, but if we're unnaturally kind of a dampening baby's demand, we're not going to be signaling to the breast to keep up that milk production.

Katie

Yeah, exactly. And this is also a contributor to this as well. So if we're doing anything to put baby in a deeper stage of sleep, then they are developmentally ready for this will increase the risk of states.

So this can look like things like self rocking bassinets, it can look like, um, swaddling, it can look like weighted sweet sacks, um, you know, blackout curtains, even to some extent, depending on your environment where you're living. Um, that's all very nuanced, but definitely we don't want to be doing things, even pacifiers can do this as well. And you know, the conversation goes very hand in hand with breastfeeding.

It's, you know, what, what can we do to help baby awake the most frequently to be able to feed as much as they need to. We just don't want to be putting them in a stage of sleep that they're not ready for.

Ceridwen

I think when it comes to pacifiers, one thing I find interesting is that as like a blanket statement or research does show that pacifiers can decrease the risk of SIDS, but the caveat is they have to have that pacifier every single time that they're sleeping in order for it to decrease that risk of SIDS. I don't, I don't know exactly. And you know, the pacifier conversation is, is in itself so nuanced.

Katie

It's a big one.

Ceridwen

Yes.

Katie

Well, and here's where I would say like, you know, the flip side of that, like, cause that's that conversation specifically is talking about a baby by themselves in a crib. If babies by themselves in a crib, having a pacifier would increase the risk of SIDS because baby's able to suck and to stay in the lighter stages. You're naturally getting that if you're bed sharing, because likely baby is latching on and off all through the night.

You are, you know, a pacifier is called a pacifier for a reason. It's not you, it's pacifying them. Right.

So that's, that's kind of why I'm like, okay, like no pacifier, especially if they're with you. Like, it just doesn't make sense.

Ceridwen

I love that you mentioned that. And like, I, that's exactly what I always think when they, when it comes to this pacifier conversation, it's like, it's the normalization of like, you know, when we're thinking about baby sleep, we're just expecting that they're going to be sleeping in the crib. And actually what we, what we've talked about is that they're maybe not, you know?

Yeah.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

We should expect that they would fight that.

Katie

Yeah.

Ceridwen

And actually the biological norm is that baby would be sleeping with you, breastfeeding, breast sleeping. Yeah. James McKenna's term on and off all throughout the night.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Katie

Because anything else from the baby's primal point of view to their brain is putting their life at risk. If they are not with a person who like going to keep them alive, primally speaking, their brains will freak out. That is why they protest so much to being away from you because they know that they can't survive without you.

So it's not just them, you know, manipulating you or like all these things that people say, it's like, no, like maybe actually can't live without you. It's their primal brain being like, hello, save me.

Ceridwen

Like I need you. Yeah. They don't know that they haven't just been left in a forest like with wolves around.

They don't know that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And yeah, I think all of this just goes to show how interlinked breastfeeding and sleep are. And again, the need for babies to be close to you and the way that that supports milk production and the breastfeeding relationship and it's all just so interlinked. Absolutely.

And I find actually the most common times when I see information on the internet about baby sleep that I'm like, oh, yikes. The most common times when I think that is because the source of this information is not also thinking about breastfeeding. And of course, this comes with like a whole history of why are they not thinking about breastfeeding?

Well, it's because there's a whole recent history that formula feeding was the norm, right?

Katie

Yeah, absolutely. No, this is where like any sleep advice can be really, really, really tricky. The sleep industry is actually completely unregulated.

You have to be, especially if you're working with a sleep specialist or you're taking a sleep advice, you have to be very, very picky about where you're getting that information from because not every certification is created equal. Usually, they're not held to certain standards. Thankfully, mine is being accredited by multiple different places in multiple countries, which is incredible, but you have to have a holistic approach.

You have to know all sorts of things about breastfeeding. You have to be trained in XYZ. You just have to know about how all of these things interplay because they do.

You can't separate breastfeeding from sleeping. You can't separate sleeping from your mental health. It all plays together.

So you have to have a very well rounded view of how all those things work together.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I feel like we're just kind of giving some tips to the moms out there about what to look for in someone when they're thinking of giving you, when you're looking for sleep advice. I think one more thing I'll add to even some people who, they do have qualifications in breastfeeding. I've even seen people who do have qualifications in breastfeeding still giving very questionable sleep advice.

It all comes down to, again, there's no regulation around it. People on the internet really can say whatever they want. Exactly.

I don't know. I think that I almost feel like I had, trauma is probably too strong of a word, but a real reaction that I kind of developed around baby sleep when I would see things on the because it was just that thing of, well, one time I trusted somebody on the internet and then I discovered that was a really bad idea and now I don't know who to trust. Hopefully on this podcast and now you've gotten, those of you who are listening, you've gotten to meet Katie.

One of the things when I do invite people on the podcast, regardless of whether they're going to be talking about sleep, I always check, even if they're talking about mental health or breastfeeding, I always check what they've also said about sleep to make sure that there's not going to be any misinformation or fear mongering or whatever it is.

Katie

Yeah. Which is hard. Everyone learns something different and especially if we're going to social media for information, that's a really Yeah.

Ceridwen

And it's just, it all goes back to the foundation is babies are designed to be close to us, meant to be close. Well, it's been so nice to talk to you today. I think this has been such a foundational conversation.

I hope that we can keep coming back to, I'm sure I'm going to be sending people back to this podcast episode time and time again, because it's, you've just given us such great information, such a great overview here today. Is there anything else that you think we haven't quite covered that you'd want to add in?

Katie

Yes, definitely. So there's just a couple additional things that we want to avoid when we're looking at infant sleep. And this includes loungers, swings, and car seats for prolonged sleep.

So, we kind of see loungers are often marketed for sleep, just thinking about things like the Dockatot or the Snuggle Me. You'll often see pictures of babies sleeping in those, but those are actually not meant for sleep and they pose a suffocation and entrapment risk. Same thing with swings and car seats, they hold baby at an unsafe angle to be at for prolonged periods of time for their airways.

So, that can cause issues. We want to, as soon as babies fall asleep in the swing, we want to move them out, move them to a different surface. For the car seat, it's fine if they're asleep in the car, but when we get out of the car, we want to be taking them out of their car seat.

And then another side effect of keeping them in those places when they're sleeping could be that, you know, maybe we start to see a little bit of like, flat spots on their heads, some plagiocephaly. And that is because baby is spending a long time on those spots with their heads. Whereas if you move them, once they fell asleep, they'd get more variation in their sleep position and that could be more prevented.

Because, you know, helmets are great for preventing further flattening, but actually the only way you are going to find healing is by having a lot of movement and having variation of your sleep position. Sorry, were you going to? Yeah, I was just going to say, one example of this is very popular, but it's the duna.

Oh, these are so hard for me. Because these are actually banned in multiple countries for the angle. The duna is the one that becomes a car seat, but it's a stroller, if that makes sense.

Ceridwen

So it's a, it's a car seat that turns into a stroller, so you don't have to take them out of the car seat in order for it to... Exactly. Right.

Katie

Yes, yeah. So that has problems on its own. But then also specifically, this one's angle that it holds at is banned in many countries because it's just unsafe for baby to be in.

And specifically, all of my clients who have dealt with bad reflex worsened in the car specifically had duna car seats and strollers. So does it happen anything? I just like avoid that one.

But yeah, I think that's most of what I wanted to cover. I think the last thing I would say here is that infancy is the period of zero to three years old. And I think that this is very hard for us to wrap our heads around because for us, like infancy should be like under a year old, right?

But the reality is your three year old needs you just as much as your newborn does, just in different ways, but they're neurologically growing at the same rate. Infancy is that period of zero to three years neurologically. So even contact naps, sound, movement, touch, these are things that throughout that whole period are developmentally needed for kids.

So I know a lot of times, our kid hits eight months old and we're like, okay, you should really be able to just lay down and fall asleep. But that's just not true. And that's not true of our two year old either.

And I just want to create space for moms to feel okay to support their children, especially our more highly sensitive children who need more movement, who need more regulation. You're not doing anything bad for them. It is just genuinely what they need.

Ceridwen

Yeah. And I think that's the most common fear that I hear from parents is just like, am I harming their development by keeping them close, by holding them when they cry, by holding them when they sleep? I'm not teaching them independence.

And I just like, it's the total opposite of that.

Katie

It is. It really is. Because the more dependence they have on you, the more independence that creates.

I really, really love the book, Rest, Play, Grow by Debra McNamara. I think that is just like a beautiful, like if I could just pass you on to read the next subject, that would be what it is.

Ceridwen

Okay. Maybe I should try and invite her on.

Katie

Oh my goodness. That would be incredible. Yeah.

Ceridwen

Oh, awesome. Thank you so much, Katie. Do you want to give kind of just like a brief summary, key takeaways from what we've discussed today?

Katie

I'd love to. Yeah. So first things first, frequent waking and nursing in infancy is absolutely normal and expected.

We want babies to be waking up. This is not a bad habit. It is just biology.

The safest sleep arrangement is going to be in the same room with you, period. But there are lots of things that we can do to reduce risk, whether that is in their own sleep surface or on a surface with you. So again, go back to those safe sleep seven, go back to those safe general guidelines for sleep.

And babies need closest touch and responsive caregiving. This not only supports sleep, but it supports feeding, arousals, which reduces risk, brain development, and physiological regulation. We want to avoid unsafe environments like sofas, loungers, swings, car seats, and unsafe bedding.

And we want to recognize that one sleep arrangement is not a one-size-fits-all. We cannot tell all families that this is the best thing to do. We need to consider their life.

We need to consider what they have access to, and we need to give them practical guidance based on that. Recognize that Western models of sleep, like baby in a separate room, long stretches of sleep, does not match infant physiology. So it's kind of where we need to rewire some of our expectations here.

And then I just want to encourage you all to attend your baby's needs in a way that feels natural to you. So, you know, night feeding, soothing, closeness, it's all a natural and very good part of parenting. It's not a sign that you are failing.

It's not a sign that you have a bad baby. And then just to wrap up here, you are your baby's safest, safest environment. So with all of this knowledge, you know, we can create a system that supports your baby, supports you, and reduces risk, rather than striving for an unrealistic idea of sleeping through the night early on.

Ceridwen

Yeah. Oh, that's just amazing. It's nice to hear it all kind of recapped and just reflect back on this episode.

Thank you so much, Katie, for joining us today. I would love to know, where can people find you? Where can people get support from you?

What kind of support do you offer? Can you?

Katie

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me at sleepystarts.com. That is where I will have the most information for you.

Alternatively, I'm on all the social medias as Sleepystarts. But typically that is just posting long form content of what I have going on my website. So I have lots of free blogs for you.

I have free stretches on my YouTube if you're dealing with body tension and babies, which, you know, that's a whole conversation for another day.

Ceridwen

I keep that handy for if I'm dealing actually with breastfeeding clients. They can be really good.

Katie

Yeah, it's so good. You know, babies are curled up in the same position for nine months. They just need to be stretched out a little bit.

So those are super great. They're on there. Those are technically myofascial release stretches, which is just, you know, stretching out all of our connective tissue.

So that's super great. I have lots of free resources. I have a free bed sharing basics guide.

So if you're just kind of like, okay, like, you know, just give it to me on paper. That's there for you on paper. And then I have lots of kits for you.

So I have like a survival toolkit. So that way you have everything from like looking at, okay, what are sleep red flags? How to prepare for sleep is like has everything you could possibly need as you're entering, especially the first six months of baby sleep and preparing for it.

And then I have kits for later on. So as we're dealing with sleep challenges and developmental leaps and all of these other things. So that is all sorts of things I offer.

I also offer a consultation. So if you're like, okay, this is feeling a little bit more nuanced than I know what to do with, like I could use some help working through all of that. I am there for that as well.

Specifically, I will say my niche that I work the best with is usually bed sharing parents who are dealing with some sort of underlying sleep challenge. So if they're experiencing like a lot of excessive wakes, because after a certain age, you know, we do want to see those wakes start going down a little bit. So if we have a bed sharing parent who's experiencing excessive wakes or some other red flags, I work with them to kind of workshop, okay, what's actually going on here.

And we'll get to the root of that.

Ceridwen

Because there's so much that can be going on. Yeah, absolutely.

Katie

One thing I'll say sleep is never about sleep.

Ceridwen

Yeah, yeah. I know. I think it's like your baby is probably sleeping normal in most cases.

And if not, it's actually probably not something to do with their sleep. It's something else that's impacting their sleep. And it's getting to the root of that.

Thank you so much. I have just one more question for you today. Oh, and everyone, go follow Katie because she is great.

Even I sometimes ask her like, can you make this guide for me? Because I would love to know before we wrap up for the pregnant mamas here who maybe they're expecting their first baby. I'd love to know if you could go back in time to when you were pregnant and well about to welcome your first baby.

What is one thing that you wish you could tell yourself back then?

Katie

Oh, man, so many things. I guess to prepare for sleep in a way that would consider my baby's needs. I like genuinely knew nothing.

And like I mentioned before, thought you could just swaddle baby and lay him down to sleep. I was given an awakening. But I wish I knew to consider that different temperaments tolerate different things.

I wish I knew what red flags to look for and what health issues can cause them. I wish I knew that bed sharing was an option. I just had no idea that it was even a thing.

But I wish I knew it before it needed to be. I was grateful for people who gave me safe and safe sleep information when I needed it, but I had no idea. And I wish I knew that neuroscience backs mom's instincts 100%.

And like I said before, I wish I knew that sleep is almost never about sleep. Like we face so many challenges only to find out that, you know, I've didn't talk about the story much, but you know that it was mold causing issues that it was body tension causing issues that it was tongue ties that it was low ferritin, like iron, all these different things. Um, yeah, there's just so much that goes into it.

I wish I knew so much.

Ceridwen

But now I do.

Katie

And now I can help other people. And I'm so so grateful for that. And I've been able to help my other babies too.

So it's just, yeah, it's a wild ride. I've been on it. I know it.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I think most most moms, when you've gone through it, it just gives you a totally different perspective on, you know, yeah, it just gives you a totally different perspective, doesn't it?