What Is Matrescence? Understanding the Emotional Transition Into Motherhood

Ceridwen

Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. If you're new here, my name is Ceridwen. I'm your podcast host and your guide to preparing for a smoother start to life with your new baby.

Here on the Postpartum Prep Podcast, we talk about all things babies, postpartum recovery, newborn care, breastfeeding, sleep, mental health, all the things. And today we have a matricence coach and motherhood mentor, Jenaveve on with us. She's a mama of two and the founder of A Mama Friend, where she supports other moms through the inner work of postpartum and the first years of motherhood.

After experiencing the gap in support for moms during the season herself, she pursued a life coaching certification, became an accredited mama rising facilitator and completed additional studies in perinatal mental health, maternal depletion and nervous system regulation. Also, she could offer moms the kind of validating, encouraging support that says me too, while also helping to answer the question, what now? Her new mission is to make friendly, flexible, early motherhood support the standard.

Genevieve, welcome to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank you so much.

Jenaveve

I'm so excited to be here with you.

Ceridwen

For those of you listening, me and Jenaveve have been sliding into each other's DMs for probably almost like two years now. So it's very exciting to actually be able to get to be on a call today. And also, it was really cool for me just to read through your bio because I didn't even realize like how many other, I knew you were a mama rising facilitator and a life coach, but training in mental health, maternal depletion, nervous system regulation, like I get that from your post, but I didn't realize you've really done the work in learning about all of this.

What led you to want to be a matricence coach and all the things from there?

Jenaveve

Right, so I became a mom in 2020, which was kind of a wild time to enter motherhood. And I needed more support than was available to me, especially more like internal support. I knew having a baby would change me, but I didn't really understand like what that meant.

And for a long time, I felt really alone in my experience. And I wondered if something was wrong with me because it was feeling so hard. And it wasn't until I learned about matricence and started hearing stories from other moms about their experiences that I realized I was not alone.

And there were many other moms who felt similarly to what I did. And so as I moved through the first years of motherhood and then had another baby, I still felt like there was support missing that second time around. And so this desire to serve other moms during this time just kept growing.

And when I was about, let's see, nine months postpartum with my second, I decided to start taking steps toward becoming a coach so I could do something about it.

Ceridwen

Amazing. And I just love hearing about how I think so many of us who do any kind of work in this area, it really is like starts as a personal experience. And then I feel like it's part of the healing journey almost in coming into actually learning how to help other people have a better experience themselves, especially new moms.

And I love hearing your journey there. I think it's really interesting because I, it sounds like you were not so familiar with the concept of matricence before you had given birth. Whereas I was really familiar with the concept of matricence even from way before I was, like, since I was a teenager, it was something that I saw as just like this super magical thing.

Like, I just really thought it was super cool. Like, you become a new woman. And then it was a little bit of like a reality shock for me realizing that that's not as easy of a process as it can.

It is very magical and it is a huge deal. And also it's not always easy, yeah. And I think, yeah, it's so helpful that we do talk about what matricence, the ups and downs of it.

Can you give us a little bit of a definition of matricence, maybe for anyone who's never heard that term before?

Jenaveve

Sure. Matricence is the term for the transformation we experience as we move into and through motherhood. It includes the psychological, emotional, social, physical, and even spiritual changes we might experience or notice in ourselves.

And it's similar to adolescence, except that matricence is not a one-time transition. It's ongoing. So it's not just about becoming a mother, it's becoming and being a mother.

Each new season is going to continue to bring up change and that can be surprising. So every woman's experience will be different, but matricence normalizes that range of what we might experience and how we might change.

Ceridwen

So are you saying that it's not just kind of when we first have our baby, but even kind of as we move into the toddler stage or the childhood stage, we kind of go through some form of matricence all throughout those stages when we're entering them as well?

Jenaveve

Exactly, yeah. And even in the phase, like when you're trying to conceive or you are pregnant, there are already these shifts happening within you. Some of them maybe you don't notice at first, but you may start to see how your worldview is changing or how you are relating to those around you, what shifts you see in your relationships, all of those things are going to start even before that baby is in your arms.

Ceridwen

Wow, so is it really helpful to learn then about, kind of why is it helpful to learn about matricence before we give birth then?

Jenaveve

So when we don't have language for our experience, we're much more likely to make ourselves the problem. So it's really interesting to me to hear that you did know about matricence. Now I wanna like talk to you more about what was that like?

But if we start thinking what is wrong with me when our experience is different than we expected, we're much less likely to share openly with others about what we're really experiencing. So I think many moms enter motherhood with this expectation that they're going to be the same person, but now with a baby, or maybe they're expecting an identity shift and not realizing it might feel more like an identity crisis, especially if it's coming alongside other changes, like maybe you're staying at home now or like working in a different way, maybe you're moving, like, or you just moved to a new area or new home. Like those are all things that might be happening alongside. So having this language and understanding matricence can help new moms be kinder to themselves, acknowledge how they're actually feeling and how their values might be shifting.

And then be honest with others about where they might be struggling without making themselves wrong for any of it.

Ceridwen

It is amazing kind of the power of language and how just from being able to identify our experience and that in a way bring words to it, it helps us to communicate it to ourselves and to others. And this term matricence, do you know much about the history of it? Sorry, I'm kind of just like throwing this to you, but I'm thinking kind of did this word always, like something that people talked about, but I feel like it's kind of new, like where we talk about it now as if it's kind of a new concept.

Jenaveve

Yeah, so there are a few kind of key figures who have studied matricence. It was first named, I believe by Dana Raphael. She's an anthropologist.

And so she noticed kind of this phenomenon and gave it a name. And then Dr. Arlie Athen is the one who is now kind of like, I wouldn't say popularized it because a lot of people still don't know about it, but she's really brought it more into the kind of modern discussion and is studying it still currently. And there are a few other names people might recognize like Alexandra Sachs.

I believe is how you say her last name. She has, I think she's the one with a really powerful TED talk on this topic. So that might be something people would wanna look into to learn more.

Ceridwen

I'll find it and try and link it in the show notes because I've watched that as well, yeah. And thought it was really, yeah, really helpful too. It's possible that that is what I had watched like before I was a mom.

I think that that where I first learned about matricence, I think actually I studied mental health for when I was doing my degree. And I think we kind of touched on like perinatal mental health. And I feel like, yeah, she might have been in there.

Yeah, it's, gosh, matricence. What I think I was, when you had said before, like you were curious to hear about my experience having learned about matricence before I was ever even pregnant. I think, you know, when I was just reflecting on what you had said about the power of language and like being able to communicate it to other people, this is where I think actually I could have benefited more from maybe even just like I think part of it for me was like I had learned about it and I knew how special it was that I was going through this transition.

But I never thought to, you know, I kind of thought that it was, I don't know why. I was just under the impression that everybody like knew about matricence and thought it was an amazing thing. I was probably just in my own little world.

It was also like just after COVID time. So it was probably, I was like following people on Instagram that talked about it a lot. And I was just like, oh, surely everyone knows about this.

And so I went into motherhood like very prepared for my own, not prepared, sorry. Prepared is the wrong word. But just very aware that I was about to go through this transition.

And yet it confused me because nobody else around me seemed to see what I was going through. And I think this is where I should have used that language more. Maybe this is a tip for our listeners.

I could have used that language more to explain to the people around me what I was going through. And that kind of brings me to my next question for you because I'm wondering whether you have any tips for moms who are gonna be, you know, planning for entering postpartum and motherhood and maybe any practical tips, if you have any. Yeah.

Jenaveve

There's so much to consider about how to care for a baby and how to care for yourself. And I think a lot of the focus usually goes to that more like physical preparation, that side of birth and postpartum. And I do still highly recommend that moms consider how they'll be caring for themselves, especially, and not just focus on the baby.

So that might mean thinking through things like a snack basket, wherever you are going to be doing the majority of your feeding, you know, a giant water bottle by the bed. But what served me more preparing for my second child was actually focusing more on the mindset and knowing who I wanted to be in those early months. And that's something I wish I had spent more time on the first time around.

Like I kind of thought I was just gonna figure it out as I went. We spend all this time preparing for the birth and maybe that like immediate few weeks postpartum, like I thought I was very prepared for that, having like the freezer meals and everything. And then still was just like shocked by the reality of how I was going to be feeling in that time.

So I wish I had done more to kind of prepare for the way that I would be thinking and supporting myself.

Ceridwen

That's so true. What kind of support do you think you would have benefited from? A mom rising facilitator?

Jenaveve

Yeah. You mean kind of support from others or like how could I have helped myself?

Ceridwen

Maybe both.

Jenaveve

Or what were you referring to? Well, I was thinking more, I guess, about the ways I could have prepared my own, yeah, my own mind and mindset, I guess, for being in that phase where there's like so much that was uncertain, really already thinking about the ways that my life might change and how some of my existing like coping mechanisms would need to change with that and how I could be kinder to myself through all of that. Like, instead of, I guess, holding myself to these really high expectations that I would just be able to like, I mean, I knew bounce back culture.

Like I already didn't believe in that, but I didn't understand that that wasn't just a physical thing, that that like idea of bouncing back was also going to be applied to like how you are coping like mentally and emotionally. And are you able to do like the basic tasks you used to be able to do? And when you have a newborn, like so much of what you used to be able to do, like isn't possible for a while.

And that can like feel really jarring, especially if you're someone who's used to like doing a lot or maybe you're very high achieving, being forced to like slow down can be a real surprise.

Ceridwen

Yeah, and it's hard because I think all of these things, I'm like nodding along, like, yes, that would have been so good for me too. But it's so hard because sometimes I think, and obviously this is like what we're trying to do with the Postpartum Prep Podcast, but I think some of these things that is hard to understand how you can prepare for life after birth when you have never experienced life after birth. So it's easy enough to kind of say in retrospect, like, oh, I wish I had prepared myself for this, but it's like, I didn't even know I was gonna experience that.

So talking through a kind of mindset, and I just love that was the topic that we wanted to talk about for the bulk of this episode was about mindset prep, because I think I just kind of, you've touched on this a little bit, the preparing yourself for, yeah, the ups and downs, I guess, and all the change and the, the, well, I'm just gonna ask you my next question. What practical ways can we prepare for mindset for this season of motherhood? Do you have any practical tips that any pregnant moms listening could take away and start practicing now?

Jenaveve

I do, yeah, I have a few ideas to share. I would say that it starts with being kinder to yourself in pregnancy. Like, what is your internal dialogue?

Like, are you saying things to yourself that you would say to a best friend? Or like, are you encouraging yourself or are you already maybe judging yourself for some of the ways that you feel like you're not measuring up? Because your inner critic is likely to get really loud in early motherhood, and you will have an advantage if you have already practiced at acknowledging that critical voice and then shifting the inner narrative to offer like more understanding and kindness to yourself instead.

And similarly, another way you can prepare your mindset is to work on actively noticing and evaluating your thoughts. So being able to kind of question them or be more of an observer of your thoughts is what will help you recognize like, is this, or could this be my anxiety talking? Or like where you could be thinking of yourself more as a victim, like around baby sleep, for instance, instead of like an empowered human who is choosing how to respond in those moments.

So you can be asking yourself, like, is that true? Is that helpful? What could be more true?

Or like, how could I see this differently? And that can be really powerful. And then aside from practicing meeting yourself with kindness and being more aware of your thoughts, visualization and vision journaling or future scripting, like it sounds a little woo, but it can be so supportive.

And that might look like picturing or writing down like specifics of a scenario you might experience in birth or postpartum or early motherhood and how you are going to feel and respond, like essentially preparing yourself for who you want to be. So that when you get there, your brain remembers. It does sound like, I think when I first learned about this, I was like, is that really gonna work?

The mental rehearsal actually activates and strengthens the same neural pathways as the real thing. And that's why that can be so helpful. And then lastly, I recommend having a few affirmations that you can reach for when needed.

So when you do feel challenged by something or overwhelmed, you already know what you want to say to yourself. Then these words can remind you of what you wanna be true or reaffirm like who you are. So when that inner critic or victim part is popping up, you already have something to say to like put it back in its place.

So some examples I've personally used are I choose to enjoy my birth. That was a big one the second time around. I am doing my best, even when it feels hard.

This is my chance to connect with my baby. This is just right now. And I am responsive and loving.

Those last few are particularly helpful to me during nightmakings.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I can see. And I think in all of these tips I hear, it's like the combination of supporting yourself as a mother, as a person, as your own person, and supporting yourself in your mothering. And I think this is, you know, we talk a lot.

I think you and I possibly originally found each other connected over the more, how do I say, gentle, responsive parenting styles. And I think there's been, I don't know if you have noticed this, but I feel like there's been a little bit of like a pushback against that, the more responsive, gentle parenting styles lately, because we are very aware of how intensive it is on the mother. And of course, part of that, a huge part of that is just needing way more support than our society expects us to need.

But then I think like at least a small part of it is supporting ourselves through our own mindset work. And I think, you know, when I hear things like mental rehearsal, kind of, okay, I might end up being really frustrated in the moment, but kind of thinking about how I feel right now, how do I still hope that I would respond in even difficult moments and walking myself through that, or affirmations, like the ones that you said, this is just right now. For me, it's always like, this is just a season, which is the eternal lesson of motherhood.

Everything is a season. Everything is a season. To help us keep like fortifying our strength I don't know if that's the right word.

I've never used that phrase before, but I think that's the right kind of phrase for when it comes to being able to keep showing up in motherhood, because it's not always easy. And that doesn't mean, I think, I mean, as moms, we don't get to just throw in the towel. It is even in those really tough moments, we have to find a way to keep going.

Right. And I think having some really positive tips like this, I can just, I wish that I had learned about this before I had given birth. Do you now, as a toddler mom, do you still find yourself reaching for some of these same strategies?

Like a hundred percent.

Jenaveve

I think for me personally, it was actually in some ways easier with a baby to put myself in that place where I could show up as I wanted, because like even when I was tired or whatever else, like they were so little. And I knew like how tiny and precious this baby was. And it made it really easy to remember like how new they were, how much they needed me.

And then as they get bigger, I think that's when more of kind of like whatever you've internalized growing up, like either in your own family of origin or like just from the way you've, I don't know, seen children treated or like expected to act in public. Like even if you have this understanding of child development, which I think is something, you and I both share a passion about. You still find that in those moments of challenge, like you're going to be triggered or like activated in a different way because your mind jumps to like, they should know better.

Or you feel it really personally because you're like, well, if I had done that growing up, like these things might've happened to me. And so I find that it's a lot more, I don't want to say demanding because I don't want to scare anybody. But it is more like demanding in some ways of that like intention and the way that you are going to respond has to be rehearsed or like decided so that when you get to those moments, like you do have that sense of, oh, okay, this thing is happening again.

Like you could be telling yourself the things like, this is not an emergency when you start to get really activated by whatever it is that your little one is doing.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I really related to when you said like, you should know better. And my son, he's almost three now. So I was really struggling with that like a month or two ago that like, you should know better.

And I actually, I started reading this book, Good Inside by Dr. Becky. I'll link it in the show notes. Have you heard of that?

Jenaveve

I have, I will admit that it is still on my shelf.

Ceridwen

Yeah, well, I'm finding it really helpful because it explains like when I'm thinking like you should know better, it explains why even if he might know better, why he's still doing those things that are frustrating to me. And I think that helps me prepare my mindset in terms of kind of understanding like why he's doing what he does. And then the rehearsing beforehand of kind of how I want to respond in those moments, because I know inevitably those moments are still gonna happen.

And one of the things that I've really been practicing lately is nervous system regulation to help get through those moments. Because even though they're so incredibly frustrating, or they can be, my frustration is not going to help my toddler or me in that situation. And obviously I'm allowed to be frustrated and like also have to keep my cool so my toddler doesn't even lose his cool even more, if that makes sense.

And kind of, this brings me to something else that I know we wanted to talk about because I know we both have like this shared appreciation for the nervous system. And now I've learned you even have training in the nervous system, which I'm really interested in. And I do feel like there's a part of us that can do mindset prep.

And then sometimes mindset prep is either like, I don't think just mindset prep alone is the whole picture. And I'm pretty sure you would agree with that. Can you explain to us a little bit about why nervous system preparation is also important for preparing for postpartum?

Jenaveve

Yeah, so the nervous system is a big piece of this. And I think supporting your nervous system should actually like be first priority because if your body already feels under threat, mindset will only carry you so far. And so how well you are taking care of yourself, like, excuse me, are you eating enough?

Are you drinking enough water, sleeping, resting as much as possible, which I know is challenging with a baby. But are you like allowing yourself to move through your emotions instead of pushing them away and letting them build? Or like if you're sensitive to sensory input, are you finding ways to reduce the overstimulation that can come with having a newborn or a toddler?

All of this plays a role in how you respond to stress postpartum and in early motherhood. And I know I did not know enough about the nervous system before becoming a mom and I've had to learn. That's why I kind of, one of the reasons I kind of went down the rabbit hole of all the different things I've learned about because I felt like I was getting bits and pieces that were helpful and, and at least in my own motherhood, what I've learned is it's really all of it.

Like it all matters. The nervous system, the mindset, like how you're nourishing yourself, that's the maternal depletion piece. Those are all connected.

And like, if you're kind of missing one of those areas, like you're still gonna wonder like, or like, could I be feeling better than I am in motherhood?

Ceridwen

Like something's still not quite there yet. Do you have any, perhaps like one or two practical nervous system regulation suggestions for moms that they could try at home.

Jenaveve

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think the one that we're all most familiar with is like breathing, right? Which in the moment, you're like, of course, I'm breathing.

But really, like, the longer and slower you can make your breaths, the more that tells your body, like, I am safe. And so one of the things I like to do is just like count to five, like breathe in for five, breathe out for five. You can also hold for five in the middle if you want to, but I don't always do that.

And then just repeat it five times. Like to me, that's easy enough to remember that I can sit there and do it and like, feel the like relief that comes after that. Some other ways that like, I like to do little resets, it's like a cold water on the face.

I don't like dunk my head or anything. I know people will do that, like put their face in a bowl. And I feel that that is a bit extreme.

But if you love it, you know, that's that's good. But just splashing like a little cold water in your face that also activates your parasympathetic nervous system, which is like the rest, digest, like we're chill. Yeah.

Side of you are on your wrist as well.

Ceridwen

Just like a little reset. A water on your wrist.

Jenaveve

Yeah, running cold water on your wrist can do the same thing. If you don't, you know, maybe have makeup on or whatever you don't want to do to your face, that can be another too. Like an ice cube as well, like holding an ice cube, something like that.

And sometimes like, you're not going to be near water or an ice cube, pushing a wall like to kind of discharge that energy and even just like walking. Like I think something that was really beneficial to me postpartum was just like whenever I was having a challenging time, I'd put the baby in the or in the carrier and we'd go on a nice long walk. And like, then I would feel better because I gave my body something to do with all of that energy that had built up.

I was going to say humming can actually be really good too, which I didn't realize at first, but like every time I was sitting humming to my baby, that was actually serving me. So that can be a really helpful one for the mamas who are like up at night or whatever else, like humming can be soothing to you as well.

Ceridwen

And for your baby, it's the power of co-regulation. Yes, exactly. I wanted to say about the breathing one, something that I've really been noticing recently is just, not because it's the same, I think people hear the breathing thing and are just like, okay, I'm breathing.

Or it's like, you'll practice the breathing in one situation and it doesn't instantly make you as calm as you've ever been. So it's kind of like, oh, it doesn't work. But really recently, I've really been noticing how it's because of practicing the breathing over and over and over again, and including in situations where I'm not feeling upset, but just, it's like building the muscle memory to where kind of anytime there's a big emotion coming up, automatically now, it's like the deep breathing, I go straight to that just because it's something I've practiced so many times. Obviously it doesn't, it's not, again, it's not like it instantly makes everything better, but I can feel how my body will start to even subtly just shift into maybe not a full parasympathetic state, like a little bit. And also, with the walking one, I remember so many days where I would be really, this was like, maybe like three, four months postpartum, where I would just be really struggling with, you know, maybe I'd have an argument with someone, maybe I was frustrated about something.

And I would sit almost all, you know, we were a contact nap for almost every nap kind of family. And so I would be sitting with my son while he's napping. But that big feeling that I was having had nowhere to go.

And so I'm just sitting there and all the thoughts are just replaying round and round and round in my head. And now I'm just thinking how different it would have been if in those situations we'd just done a contact nap in the carrier and I'd just gone for a walk outside or something. It would have been so different.

And yeah, I think it's about always like balancing your care for yourself and your baby. And I often think actually sometimes care for yourself comes first, because if you're not caring for yourself, how are you meant to care for your baby? Right.

Yeah, it's a whole like oxygen mask. Yeah, exactly.

Jenaveve

Put on your own oxygen mask first. But I know that it's like easier said than done, especially in the early months when it's like, it feels all consuming. True.

And you're just completely sleep deprived. Yeah. Which also we like don't give ourselves enough credit for what it's really like to be in that state of sleep deprivation.

The minute you like start getting more sleep as a mom, you will realize like, whoa, I feel like a totally different human. And yeah, and then it starts to make sense like why you felt some of the ways that you did.

Ceridwen

Oh, yeah.

Jenaveve

Why your nervous system was like, so on, like why you were so on edge all the time.

Ceridwen

Yeah. I mean, it's a lot, a lot for us to ask ourselves to be super calm and happy all the time when we are so tired. Yeah.

And I guess that's where it's the bigger picture, because I think even when you're tired, you can still practice nervous system regulation, because it's all part of any support for yourself that we can, that you can have, is helpful. And it's also the bigger picture of like, do you have friends and family or paid support or any kind of online support, any kind of support that is not just you having to do everything. Right.

And we definitely have some other episodes about support on the Postpartum Prep podcast. So I'll link those in the show notes. Genevieve, we're kind of coming to the end of our conversation today.

But I do have one more question for you. If you could go back and speak to yourself when you were pregnant with your first baby, what would you tell yourself back then? Oh, gosh, this question.

Jenaveve

If I could go back, I would tell her that she's about to experience a huge shift in her life and that it's okay, like she's going to be okay. I would tell her to focus on her instincts and intuition. And aside from like learning about safe co-sleeping, not worry so much about trying to get everything right, because the amount of information available and all of the conflicting opinions is going to like add to the anxiety.

So I would also want to assure her that it will take some time for her baby to sleep, like a lot of time, but it will happen eventually in toddlerhood. And I might also tell her that it will likely feel all consuming at first, but that that will shift as well so that she knows like there's another side to this and you will get there. Yeah.

Ceridwen

Yeah, that's, I wish that I'd heard that.

Jenaveve

I know.

Ceridwen

And you will get there.

Jenaveve

It's so hard, that question, because like, like you were saying before, it's the hindsight. And that's why I love what you're doing with this podcast, because I know I listened to similar podcasts, Recurring for Birth and hearing other people's birth stories was so helpful and really did give me a sense of like all different ways things could go. So I felt more prepared.

And I think that's what you're doing here with this podcast, that it's more opportunity, more stories that people can, even if they don't fully understand right now, it's something you can come back to as well, like when they are postpartum. So I imagine a lot of your listeners are expecting, but I hope that they will also revisit it in postpartum to kind of gather validation for whatever it is they're experiencing.

Ceridwen

I hope so too. Thank you. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like you've been on such a journey with me, like, just I feel like I've gone through like a few different iterations of my online presence since we've been in each other's orbit. And it's definitely just been, I'm so grateful that I've landed on the podcast. And because I feel like it's just everything that I'd like wanted to offer.

And now I get to do it for free. So it's amazing. You know, I get to offer it to parents for free.

So that's super exciting for me. And thank you for that. Before we end today, where can people find you if they would like to learn more about you or work with you?

Jenaveve

Yeah, so my website, which is amamafriend.com, that's A-M-A-M-A friend, is a growing resource. There's a blog there and a free audio called You Didn't Expect This, which is more on this topic of matroscence, as well as some reflection prompts that can help you shift the way you're thinking about motherhood. And people can find more information about working together there as well.

And then I'd love for anyone listening to come connect with me on Instagram, or threads at amamafriend. I'm a bit more active on Instagram, but I'm trying to expand over to threads. And please, if you come find me, and you come from this podcast, send me a DM so that I know you listened, and I'd love to hear from you.

Ceridwen

Yes, and I'd love to hear if anybody does message you from this podcast. I can 100% vouch for Genevieve. I did a mini one-week asynchronous coaching with Genevieve just before Christmas, and it was all about preparing our mindset and preparing for self-care for the holiday season.

And we were just talking about before this call, I was saying it was such a nice way to also prepare for New Year's, because I feel like often the Christmas season is so focused on family and other people that New Year's comes around, and suddenly now we're thinking about resolutions and everything. And I'm like, I haven't even been thinking about myself for the past couple of weeks. And then it was just really cool, because like I said, Genevieve and I have known each other for a while, and it was really cool to actually see in action what Genevieve does.

And like, oh my gosh, I was floored. I was so impressed with, I felt like I went through, you know, we're talking about Christmas and the holidays. And yeah, I felt like I was learning about myself.

I was learning about my relationship with my husband. I was learning about who I was as a mother. There's things that we talked about that I still put into practice today, two months later, that have nothing to do with Christmas.

And it just, it was really cool. And it just made me think, I sent Genevieve this whole long voice note about how I can really see now why what she does would have been so helpful, or is so helpful for new moms. Because I was like, if I had had this kind of support, someone just telling me like, that I'm doing a good job, but also helping me reflect on it, so that I can really, it's not just that she's telling me I'm doing a good job, it's so that I can understand like, why I'm doing a good job myself.

And have, you know, and especially for kind of the things that are tricky to talk about with other people, I think, as a mom, there are just, you know, like mom guilt, for example, that's a big one that I think we covered. And sometimes it is hard to talk to other people about it, because maybe they don't understand what you're going through. Or it feels like, I don't know, mom guilt is such a weird thing, because sometimes it feels like I shouldn't feel guilty for feeling this.

But at the same time, I feel so guilty for feeling this. And like, I think you have an amazing way of just helping, helping, helping with that. That's all I can say.

I don't know how else to say it. But so, sorry, this was, I kind of went on a long talk there about why I think Jenaveve's work is amazing. But I really do think it is amazing.

So 100% please go check her out. Thank you so much. We are about to record our Q&A episode right now.

And hopefully you will get a little glimpse in this Q&A episode as well as to why Genevieve is so amazing. Because she's going to be answering three of your real questions about preparing for the emotional rollercoaster of motherhood. So head on over to that Q&A episode if you're listening to this.

The day it comes out, the Q&A episode will be out tomorrow. But if you're listening in the future, then the Q&A episode should already be out. And we will see you in there.

Bye for now.