Preparing for Postpartum The Regenerative Motherhood Way

Ceridwen

Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. My name is Ceridwen, I'm your podcast host. I'm a postpartum doula, a lactation counsellor, and an infant sleep practitioner.

Today on the podcast I'm joined by Claire Fagan and this conversation just felt like such a bomb for the soul as a new mom. We're talking about how to nurture connection in your relationship with your baby in a way that it supports well-being for you and your baby. Claire has created a framework for understanding this mutual nourishment between mothers and babies that comes about when we really nurture the connection between them and nurture their bonding.

And I just, when I first learned of Claire's framework, I was like we need her on the podcast because this concept of mutual nourishment is really everything we stand for here at the Postpartum Prep Podcast and it may work through mother-baby well-being. Claire has so much to offer us in this conversation today and it was also just really fun for me to get to record with her to just chat about our shared passion for supporting moms and babies so that they can truly thrive in their relationship connected together. I hope you enjoy this conversation and that whether you're currently pregnant and planning ahead for your baby's arrival or if your baby's already arrived and you're just looking for a moment to reflect on the journey of becoming a mother and meeting your baby and developing your relationship with your baby.

I hope this conversation offers something wherever you're at. I know it will offer something wherever you're at. Thank you so much for listening today.

Let's get into the episode. Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. Today I'm here with Claire Fagan.

Claire, would you give us a little bit of introduction to yourself and what you do?

Claire

Sure. Hi everybody. I'm Claire.

I'm happy to be here. I'm a doula postpartum and birth. I'm a childbirth educator.

I'm a biological infant sleep educator and I'm also the founder of Regenerative Motherhood, which is a little new kind of project I've been working on and been having a lot of fun with it. So excited to be here, excited to talk about all of this and also I guess I should mention I'm also a mom.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Claire

Of the titles. I'm a mom too. My son is named Bixby.

He's almost two so he's been such a teacher for me and has really like propelled my work forward and my life forward and me as a person forward. So yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Ceridwen

Thank you so much for coming on. I really resonate like what you said with your son being such a teacher. I was wondering if you would, would you tell us a bit more about that and kind of how it's led you into what you do today?

Claire

Sure. I mean like where to begin? I feel, you know, it's like it's so crazy when you think about how the there's such a strong narrative about your life kind of like ending when motherhood begins because it's like we're missing the point completely.

Like we're missing the fact that actually it's like the key to your level up in so many ways. You know what I mean? And so that's how it's just felt.

I just like myself more than ever before. I feel like a stronger person than ever before. I feel like I'm more clear on like my own thoughts and feelings and can communicate them and and yeah and I think just I was a doula and I was a childbirth educator before I became a mom.

So I think I thought that I knew everything.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Claire

You know like I've seen birth, I know about birth, I've seen newborns, you know what I mean? And turns out I literally didn't know anything and I just still feel like every day I'm humbled. I'm like actually do I know anything now?

No, still no. You know what I mean?

Ceridwen

It's like the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know what you don't know.

Claire

And then the more that I get like solidified in my own experience and I'm like okay that's how it is, then I talk to someone else I'm like oh wait that's not how it is for everybody.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Claire

There's a lot of nuance here and I think that that's the beauty of it, right? Like all of these unknowns, all of these like learning curves that are constantly being thrown at you are that key to like just just just expansion. So anyway, yeah I I had a lot of expectations when I became a mother and then my son basically threw them all in the trash.

Like it was it's been beautiful and so that's how I kind of transitioned into working with parents when it comes to infant sleep because sleep was always our thing that I was like hmm wow this looks nothing like I thought it would look like things that I was told are not the things that I'm being told to do. I can't. I won't.

So and so the my like my mind needs to, which is something I'm working on, my mind needs to like ration, you know? So in order to like rationalize like what he was asking for, I was like I know he wants to be held while he's sleeping and I can do that but like also I need to know why. So that kind of like launched me into learning a lot about infant sleep and now that's kind of one of the main things I do.

But yeah just like he's just totally like expanded my work and then like channeled it into like more specific areas which has been fun and can't even imagine what a second baby would teach me, you know what I mean? Like it's like if I learned so much with one like then another one would come in and teach me something totally different. So anyway it's been really fun like I have so enjoyed motherhood and I've so enjoyed myself as a mother which has been like a beautiful thing to experience.

Ceridwen

So yeah it's kind of seeing like who you're becoming through the process of having your own baby. I feel like I really related to what you said about that when you have a baby it's almost like you feel like your life is ending. I remember when I had my baby it was like I was living in my 20s and then I was suddenly I had my baby and all I could see was like oh I'm gonna raise a baby and then I'm gonna become old and then I'm gonna die like it was like I didn't see all the journey actually in that you know that you go through like even a year into mothering it's like oh now I'm living it and now I'm actually seeing there's so much here that I get to experience and yeah I just I love what you said about that.

I think you know this podcast is really for pregnant moms is mainly and I think that's a journey that you know when you're pregnant you have no idea what is to come but there is if it's your first baby and yeah I just love that you brought that up but I also wanted to ask speaking about pregnant moms who they may have like no idea really you mentioned about infant sleep they may have no idea really what to expect and I love that you brought up expectations because I think so much of the challenge when it comes to baby sleep is actually like our expectations versus reality I was wondering would you tell us a little bit about what expectations you had that weren't didn't match up with the reality

Claire

yeah definitely I think maybe I think well first of all I just didn't understand like I don't want a nannying but like never seen a baby from womb to like three or whatever you know what I mean like I've never seen like that unfolding in that amount of time like it's like I pop in and help them eat lunch you know I mean but then I didn't realize like how strong the the drive to be near your baby like I think I've done a lot of thinking ever since having my son about how back in the beginning of humans like before we even knew how to before we even literally knew how to make any kind of shelter or like start a fire like the most primitive of days like a mother was a baby's shelter and warmth and nutrition and and so I didn't realize how strongly that is still in us and that was probably like the biggest thing like I'm like why you know I'm being told to set him down in his crib like why is that not working or you know sleep is disrupted past like the early early newborn days is there something wrong with him so I think those two were probably the biggest like his need to be on me you know co-regulating with me in close proximity to me was the first one that surprised me because we just live in a culture that that pathologizes that and that doesn't prepare mothers for that I don't think but it's so so so normal and then the second one was yeah I think that we're like you know well the newborn days are gonna be so tough with sleep but then it'll get better and it's like it changes it's a journey and it changes and it evolves and of course it like now that I have a two-year-old it's so much different than it was when he was a newborn I'm getting way way way more sleep but at the same time like he's still waking up maybe even similar amounts it's just that the wake-ups look different and we've streamlined learned each other and so yeah I think that disrupted sleep past the newborn period is something that I would really I just wish that all mothers knew about that that was normal and then that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with your baby but in fact it's it's the way that your baby's designed to be and to sleep and it has to do with their brain you know still developing outside of the womb it has to do with their need for proximity it has to do with them having a tiny tummy so there's lots of really biologically normal reasons that this happens and and your baby's not broken and you were not broken if you give them what you know they're asking for so what

Ceridwen

would a pregnant mom who might not know what it is that they're asking for what would that what might that look like what might be we be talking about right

Claire

now I think what they're I think I think that we see caregiving different day and night like we think baby needs in the daytime they shouldn't get for whatever reason in the nighttime because it's nighttime and say if anything that they ask for in the day or in the night should be met so whether that's food or comfort or warmth or a diaper change or being held or like anything I think just realizing that nighttime caregiving is just as important as daytime caregiving if not more I actually read this quote one time I believe it was by a lactation consultant named pinky McKay I think she's the one who said it and she was like you know we tend to act whatever I'm gonna butcher it but what she said was we tend to act like daytime caregiving is more important than nighttime caregiving we don't do the nighttime caregiving like culturally but what if the nighttime caregiving was actually more important because so many of your baby's main sense which is their sight is at rest and so what if that nighttime that nighttime caregiving was more important because you're almost making up for the fact that they can't see you know what I mean like in the daytime they have more information and at night they need more to make up for what's at rest and I I like that like yeah to see it as less important I think they're equally but what if it's more important you know yeah that kind of

Ceridwen

your baby's needs maybe your baby even has like more needs at night yeah that need for like sense of safety to be nurtured and right and to so that their

Claire

bodies can and brains can move out of that survival mode like it's a survival mechanism for them to want to be near to you to need to be near to you but when we give them that without them having to do anything to ask for it really like really beyond like just normal asking then we allow them to switch out of survival mode and into thrival mode so that they're able to rest and get what they need to actually develop to the most optimal degree mm-hmm yeah so we're providing so much like so much more than just the milk or just the diaper change providing them the ability to feel safe in the world yeah yeah so

Ceridwen

important for their development everything you mentioned kind of when we're giving them what they need without them even really having to ask for it is that kind of that's kind of what you said right yeah or like maybe I didn't

Claire

say that quite right like but without having to like scream for it I guess yeah we're always communicating we're always listening and being led by them but I think we just have so much so many conversations in our culture around like well just let them cry for a while they're fine and it's like the crying is communication so we don't get to this level before we answer it like it's okay if it's at this level and we answer it here you know this isn't teaching them anything between here and here yeah yeah teaching them anything of value it's maybe teaching them that they got to work for it you know how can the message that they'll get what they need without having to work for it mm-hmm um for like

Ceridwen

a pregnant mom who is especially if she's never had a baby and she's kind of thinking through this like what might be some practical examples of what that

Claire

would look like in practice mm-hmm yeah um I think what that might look like in practice is just um really just staying so close and just watching your baby like watching their cues just just staying so close that you're that you are so in tune with them that that you know what they're asking for so whether and like I said like whether that's a feeding and whether that's a feeding because you think they're hungry or because they just need to be near you and hear your heartbeat and smell your smell whether that's a diaper change or whether you know like it's it's just the the small act it's nothing big it's nothing that you don't already do or don't already know how to do it's just a matter of doing it as they ask and in a manner that sends in the message that like you're safe you're loved you're held so practically I would just say stay close like I don't think that there's anything more important than that and I don't think it has to be more complicated than that we complicate it with gadgets and all these rules about you can stay close for this many minutes and then walk away or let somebody else help you feed them or whatever it's it's really just how can you keep them close and then how can you create an environment where you're supported to keep them close mm-hmm I think this

Ceridwen

kind of brings us into maybe talking a little bit about your regenerative paradigm for mothering is that kind of where you know talking about that like it can be truly beneficial would you tell us a little bit about just like an overview and then we can get into the details yeah this is like my first time

Claire

talking about it with like not a friend I feel like but I just mean like not like just trying to tell a mom friend about yeah I didn't have the opportunity to talk about it and I appreciate you giving me that but yeah the regenerative paradigm is kind of this like project I've been working on I think it's been in the works since basically I became a mom and then I think I spent like the last like six or so months kind of like organizing my thoughts into something that feels a little bit more concrete but I basically just launched this what what it is is the regenerative paradigm is this framework for mothering because I believe in my core that a mother has all of the answers that she could possibly need but we live in a culture who will tell that tells her that she doesn't that she needs to outsource that she needs to tune out what her gut is telling her tune out what her baby is telling her and like override these cues and these messages with these like one-size-fits-all scripts or rule books or and I just think that we really disempower mothers when we send them this message so the regenerative framework operates on the core belief that a mother already has all the answers she needs her I mean your brain changes your body changes to be what your baby needs we've just done a lot of to convince a mother that that's wrong so the framework provides essentially a bit of support to help a mother quiet the noise that is so loud and it's not here to give answers and it's not here to you know make this make things one-size-fits-all it's it's here to quiet the noise so that you can get back in touch with the answer that's right for you and right for your baby and right for your family and I know that that sounds a little bit vague but it is a little bit vague because there's like we said earlier like there's so much nuance like there's never gonna be one answer for everybody and so what the framework is based on is these six foundations and when you find yourself at what I like to call a threshold moment where you're just sort of in the in between between what's been and what's becoming whether that's you have not been a mother and you're becoming a mother or your baby has not been two months old and they're becoming two months old or something like it's just any moment that you're like hmm what might the next step be for us what might the next answer be for us and it doesn't matter what age it can be if you're trying to conceive to when your child is going off to college having adult children like this framework still provides the ability for you to be like instead of listening to how it's going for everybody else how can I tune into what me and my child needs this feels good and the six foundations are I'll just say really quickly we can go through maybe like in more detail but it's um working with nature rather than against it honoring nuance and individuality as a source of strength and wisdom rather than something to like be squashed for the sake of convenience the third is putting it's honoring mutual nourishment so what feels good for me and my baby at the same time because this doesn't have to be extractive this doesn't have to be something that they're being deprived so I can feel good or I'm being run ragged so they can feel good the third the fourth is putting connection at the forefront of everything we do I think that one's so important the fifth is embracing change as an ally rather than fighting against it and then the six is honoring the interconnectedness like honoring the fact that what goes on in the four walls of our homes doesn't stay there forever and it has these ripple effects out and because of that the way that we mother and the way that we raise the next generation can literally change the world and can heal our communities and bring us back into more alignment than I think we find ourselves in now so yeah it sounds a little bit vague but that's basically what regenerative motherhood is and then my vision for it as it grows is to meet with different professionals and have them chat with me about what you know what does lactation look like through the regenerative lens what does sleep look like through the regenerative lens like how can we apply this framework to these specific areas so that we can find the answers that we need to mother in alignment and to raise aligned children who feel confident in their authenticity and so yeah that's what I've been working on so yeah it's

Ceridwen

really exciting like I I must have seen you know I've been following you for a long time but your posts don't tend to come up in my feed but like this one about when you kind of announced the regenerative regenerative paradigm I think you were starting maybe a course am I right yeah I did I did a little

Claire

course to like explain in multiple hours what I just explained yeah so I

Ceridwen

think your post came up in my feed and immediately I saw it because it's very aligned I think you the mother baby well-being principles I was like you need to come and talk like right now I think I mean just starting from I think the funny thing is like for both the I mean I've never actually talked about my let me just explain for like anyone who's listening the mother baby well being principles I mainly have them for the guests who come on the podcast just so that they understand like what we value here on the podcast when it comes to talking about moms and babies and everything from like the first is kind of about biological norms which I think yours is I'm assuming that's kind of what you're and then to the last principle being of mine being about like kind of how it it ripples out to like collective transformation and stuff I just thought it's um yeah very like maybe we can should we go through each

Claire

one and we can like one of yours and we can yeah you want me to go just the

Ceridwen

list yeah and we can just go through the list again and maybe we can just take you a bit more time on each one and just a little bit yeah yeah so my first one

Claire

is working with nature rather than against it so yeah like you said like the way that I think I define that is like biological like what will unfold when it is not interrupted mmm something that I find so interesting is like the way that we have these words and I'm like so guilty of this like throwing out words like biological physiology like nurture neuroscience you know I mean like all these fancy scientific words that make me sound like maybe I'm not so woohoo after all right but at the end of the day like these are just words that mean the design that's already in place and that will unfold if we trust it like when we trusted it unfolds in it's perfect you know I mean we don't have to do anything we don't have to open a textbook and know the definition of physiology or whatever for our bodies to operate as they were meant to or we don't have to learn the word nurture neuroscience to know that when we hold our babies close it it heals us and it helps them and you know what I mean so it's like perfect design that is whether or not we are really working for

Ceridwen

it we don't have to work for it you know could you give us some examples again for like the pregnant moms who might not have experienced any of this before what kind of examples what would be some examples of this yeah sure so like let's

Claire

say with like a biological sleep norm or something like yeah fancy way of saying how a baby how an infant sleeps there is no interference when there's no sleep training when there's no fighting against the nature to put them down in their crib even whenever they're calling out for you know I mean so my sleep norm would be that sleep doesn't look linear that babies wake up multiple times throughout the night past the newborn period because this is a protective thing that happens in their brains so that they have the best chance at survival so they're waking up often to know mom's here or a caregiver is here for me I have access to the nutrition I need you know like it's it's normal for them to wake up like that would be a biological norm a physiological experience of birth would be that your body is designed to push your baby out and your baby is designed to work with your body to emerge and of course there's sometimes need for medical intervention and whenever we need that and like we give great thanks for the fact that we have it and I don't mean to you know discount that that's a really beautiful thing that we have access to and also in many many many cases your body knows what to do and if nobody messes with you and if and if that is trusted it works you know I think that's where your

Ceridwen

second principle kind of comes in about nuance and like you know I totally agree there about you know we can follow all the you know what our bodies are just kind of naturally designed to do and there's also situations where there's nuances and would you want to tell us a little bit more about that

Claire

second principle yeah perfect place to like bring it up is like birth beautiful example of how nuance it's so necessary to honor nuance because right now we have all of these culturally speaking we have so many scripts and rigid like rule sets for mothers to follow or we give the same care to every single pregnant woman no matter their health history or their family history or their age or their whatever and so yeah it's a matter of it's a matter of honoring that there is a biological truth that roots us there is a developmental truth that roots us there is a neurological truth that roots us and also that is going to look different and unfold differently for every single mother and every single baby and every single combination of the two so how can we tailor the support that we give as practitioners and the the reverence that we give to our babies as mothers how can we honor that there has to be nuance and we have and and I you know one of the reasons I chose the name regenerative motherhood is because this idea of regeneration is so much easier to understand through an

Ceridwen

agricultural lens I think like do you want to give like a metaphor there

Claire

around yeah so what it like so I have this like running metaphor throughout I'm such a like geek for a metaphor I don't know why I'm like I love it it's

Ceridwen

just the best way yeah I think metaphors are like really spiritual like we just understand them in a different way yeah just like the storytelling part of us

Claire

yes we need it so the so one of the ways that I describe like regeneration and motherhood as a regenerative practice is through the agricultural lens so so if you drive through like at like agricultural areas in our modern day what you'll see is one crop as far as the eye can see like it's like this it's this method called monoculture and it's basically in order to make things easier on the farmer to streamline the work to yeah just create like a sense of like I don't even know if ease is the right word but just to create a sense of like predictability and yeah just to make things more streamlined to produce output we do one crop as far as the eye can see but that is so outside of the natural blueprint for like if you look into a forest you will literally never ever see one plant as far as the eye can see or even one plant only in like a 10 foot like radius you know so when we compare that that monoculture to a regenerative garden where a different method that's a more natural method called like companion planting which is where you plant plants together that that you harness the differences of these plants to help them all grow and thrive so like an example is if you plant leeks and carrots together carrots like shoo away leek flies and leeks shoo away carrot flies right so it's like they're working in harmony with one another and creating a stronger garden in the end right and what this takes from the farmer is more attunement like he's needing to walk through his garden and say this plant needs less water than this one or this one has bugs like I'm looking under the leaf and so I need to treat this plant but this one's doing okay or this one is harvested at a different time and this one you know it really takes him being connected to his land and really attuned to his land and what the monoculture gets rid of is the need to do that. So it might be more streamlined and it might be easier on the farmer in some ways, but at the end of the day, if you look at the difference, the soil is totally depleted with monoculture. There's no pollinate, there's no bug, like there's no vibrance, there's no like buzzing of life.

Whereas with the regenerative garden, like it's buzzing with life, like it's, and it's also creating fertile soil for the next growing season as well. So it's not only nourishing the farmer because he's nourished by his vegetables that have been attuned to and have, you know, they have so much vitamin content. The soil is healthy.

He's healthy because he's digging in healthy soil. So it's not only about the farmer's health or the plant's health, but it's also about the health of the animals that live down the hill from the farm. Because if the rain comes down and catches that soil, it's going to take that water down to their pens and is that water going to be carrying poison or, you know, nutrition, you know what I mean?

So it's like, that's kind of the ripple effect out. So anyway, the second foundation being nuance and honoring nuance as a source of strength is like the difference between a garden that's buzzing with life versus sort of this like more wiped out, depleted land that life doesn't have a chance to thrive in. And when we give mothers attuned care, we create this vibrant society versus when we treat them all the same, it's not benefiting anybody.

It's not benefiting moms, babies, or the future of our communities.

Ceridwen

So, yeah. And I think it makes me think about how, you know, part of it, I actually think I watched a video of yours this morning, the one where you were talking about how these can also be applied to like, not just how mothers treat their babies, but how doulas then treat mothers.

Claire

Right.

Ceridwen

And that I really kind of got that from your metaphor, especially where you were talking about like the former, like checking each individual plan and like, that's so much about the mom helping the baby, you know, treating them as individuals. But also I was just thinking from a professional point of view, it's about how as professionals, we have to treat our mothers and babies, but especially the mothers with that same individual approach. But how, you know, if we even go to a bigger picture, there's like so many challenges that even allow, whether it's, you know, pediatricians, midwives, OBGYNs, or doulas, there's even like this bigger picture where the like societal system that we're in doesn't allow for that individual.

And I always just like to emphasize for the moms, like how much of our parenting just happens in that wider context. And I think there's always like, especially, I don't know if you see this, but like, especially with first-time moms and when I was a first-time mom, the sense of like perfectionism, like if I can just do everything perfectly, like everything will work out fine. And then reality is like, why am I not able to do everything perfectly?

That the book says I should do has actually like, it's probably nothing to do with you. It's like the wider system that you're in and that level of support. Do you have that, you know, access to the support that you need to be able to support your baby and yeah.

Claire

100%, I totally agree. There's this, are you familiar with Dr. Sophie Brock's work? Yes.

Like I'm obsessed with her for anybody who doesn't know. She's a sociologist, I believe, but like her main, what she studies is motherhood. Like she's a mother, she's like one of the first people, crazily enough, it took this long, that is a motherhood specific sociologist.

And she says that, she says what you just said. And I really liked the way she said it. She's like, it's like, we're all fish in a fish tank and the water is the society that we live in.

And we don't even realize, we don't even clock the water. We're not even aware of the water because it's so much a part of just our daily, just goings about. And she was like, but the water is so influential.

And so there are, yeah, like as a fish, as fish, as moms, like we sometimes have these feelings like why can't I do it the way that I wanna do it or the way I'm being told to do it or why isn't my plan working out? And it's like, it's probably not you. It's probably has something more to do with like the water that you're swimming in that you even realize is affecting.

And I think like our lack of the village these days is one of the biggest things that we're like, I'm being told I should be able to do it all. And I can't, and I'm actually burning out really hardcore. And why is that?

It must be a failing of mine or something wrong with my baby or let me blame my partner or whatever. And it's like, I lost the plot there.

Ceridwen

Yeah. And I think sometimes that like becoming a mom is one of those teaching points. Like it's kind of a wake up call if you've never really thought about it before about how society impacts the ability for us to care for each other or like the way that society is set up.

It can be a real wake up call when you're going through motherhood and realizing like this individual kind of like the expectation that we should be able to do it all as individuals in our little nuclear families. And yeah, definitely can be a bit of a wake up call there.

Claire

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, it becomes really, really real, I think.

Ceridwen

And so can you remind me what the third principle was?

Claire

Yes, the third is honoring mutual nourishment.

Ceridwen

Oh, okay. And I'd love for you to talk on this, yeah.

Claire

I do like this one. And I think I just said it a minute ago, but it's basically like runs on this premise that like it is mothering and like nurturing and being nurtured are designed to feel good for both the nurturer and the one being nurtured. And I think we forget that.

Like, I really think that we have this and I said this, but we have this idea that we either need to deprive our babies of what feels good for them for it to feel good for us, or we need to be like totally burnt out and like just like fried in order for it to feel good for our babies. And I just don't believe that that's actually the intended design. I believe that it's meant to feel good for both of us.

And it's just a matter of, you know, working with nature and honoring nuance and elevating what does work for our specific situation. And I think that the farmer who has the really biodiverse garden is a really good example of that. Like he is nourished by, like I think like maybe it's like, imagine the two different farmers, like from the conventional method versus the regenerative method, like both sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner and there's like hot steaming carrots on the table in front of him.

I just always think about how much more nourishing will the carrots that the farmer who was deeply attuned to his seed, to seedling, to plant, to harvest, how much more nourishing those carrots will be for his, like not only nutrient dense wise, like it does change the composition of like the carrot itself, but how much more nourishing it is just because of that attunement and connection and journey versus the farmer who had like, I don't know, he didn't, a machine planted the seed and then harvested the seed and it was watered by somebody else. And, you know, and then that being on the table in front of like, just there is, you know, there is a way for it to feel good for the plant and the farmer, for the mother and the child, or for the practitioner and the mother. Like, I think as practitioners, a lot of times we're asked to disown ourselves in order to be what a mother needs, I suppose.

Or we need to be burnt out to be supportive or whatever, but at the end of the day, it's like, no, like you should be able to be in your integrity while also supporting a mother in a way that feels good for her, or this should feel good for both of you. And I think that the regenerative paradigm can help with that too. Like, if you're as a practitioner, if you're like, wow, I'm burnt out, you know, it's like, are you working with nature?

Or are you bypassing your need to rest? Like, are you honoring nuance or are you trying to do it like the doula next door? Or, you know what I mean?

And so, yeah, I think it's meant to, always meant to feel good. And I think it doesn't have to be extractive. We just have a lot of narratives around like that extraction in our culture.

Ceridwen

And I think it's like, because of certain practices that we think are normal, that actually like are more on the extractive side compared to, maybe not in our culture, what we think of as normal, but like maybe biologically, what is more normal that is more mutually restorative or whatever the thing is. For the pregnant moms listening, do you have any practical examples, like practical tips of how they can get started with, you know, as they're entering life with their new baby, like from the get-go setting it up to be this more mutually nourishing relationship?

Claire

Yes, yeah, I do. And I think that like this idea of mutual nourishment is like a little bit twofold. Like I think that there is like a, there really is like a biological truth to mutual nourishment.

And I think one example, like one practical example of that, and I'm aware that not everybody can breastfeed or I'm aware that not everybody chooses to, but I'm just gonna use breastfeeding as an example of like biologically sound mutual nourishment. Because when we, you know, the design of breastfeeding is that we nurture our children from our body, but we get so much back. For example, like one example is like at night, the composition of our breast milk changes from what it is in the daytime.

And so it's higher in like melatonin and these sleep-inducing nucleotides that bind to the brain like cannabinoid, like in our cannabinoid receptors. So we like to say that a baby's milk is like milk drunk, but a baby's actually milk high because the way that these like sleepy, like nucleotides bind to the brain is yeah, in the same way that like marijuana would. And so when we feed our babies at night, these are given from our bodies to our babies, but also our bodies are flooded with this melatonin and these things.

And so we both get back to sleep more quickly. Like the design of breastfeeding is to help us get back to sleep more quickly. And I think that that's just one like biologically grounded example of mutual nourishment.

And a lot of times we'll say like, oh, like, you know, for your mental health, like don't breastfeed or whatever it is, or you need some help, like you should, you should, you know, maybe combo feed so your baby can have formula and somebody else can help you. But it's like, actually, what if we just ground into this idea that breastfeeding, it can be mutually nourishing for both mom and baby on a, like a biological, like a really like cellular level.

Ceridwen

But- And that is, when it comes to like the mental health and exclusively breastfeeding side of things, it's very evidence-based that when you're exclusively breastfeeding day and night, moms who are exclusively breastfeeding do have better rates of mental or fewer, do have better mental health.

Claire

Right, yeah, totally.

Ceridwen

That's from Kathleen Kendall Tackett. Have you heard of her? No.

No, I feel like for anyone listening, they're gonna be like, why do you, I just mentioned her again in the last episode, but she's done a significant amount of the research like into mental health and breastfeeding and just to show exactly what you can, that when you are exclusively breastfeeding, the rates of your mental health is better compared to moms who are either formula feeding or combo feeding.

Claire

Right.

Ceridwen

The exception being when, if a mom is struggling, like if something is not going well with breastfeeding, so maybe if she's experiencing pain or if she is experiencing low milk supply or something like that, then her mental health is worse, but this is just where from my perspective, it's like, well, if we got her support as soon as possible and we built up the systems around ensuring that she had support right from the get go and access to it and that it was affordable or free or whatever, like just to make sure that every mom has that support, that that would be so much less of a big deal because we wouldn't have so many moms experiencing those challenges.

Claire

Right, 100%. And I totally agree. And I think it's kind of like in birth, have you ever heard, I can't remember who I heard this from first, but like there's a difference between pain and suffering, right?

Like in birth, like sure, it's painful. Like, yeah, it's painful. Okay, that's fine.

It doesn't necessarily equate to suffering, but there are cases where there is suffering in birth and that's where we might need intervention or to change the way that we had it planned or whatever. And I think that that goes for breastfeeding as well. Like there's gonna be painful moments, hard moments, but with the right support, that pain doesn't have to turn into suffering, but there absolutely is the cases where for whatever reason there is suffering.

And I think that that's a good indication to maybe be more okay with pivoting if that's what's like called for and necessary. And so I love like, you know, if we're not able to work with nature in that way, then how can we honor the nuance, right? And what like nuanced formula feeding might look like, like it's not just that only breastfeeding can feel good and then formula feeding can never, and it's never, you know, it's like, actually, how can we still hold our babies so close and have some skin on skin and make eye contact and like feed in this really connected way, even if it's not our breast milk, our bodies still will absolutely be flooded with oxytocin, with dopamine, just connecting with our babies and feeling their skin and vice versa. So yeah, I think that's why it's really important to like honor nature and then honor nuance.

And then once we're honoring nuance and we're like, okay, we have this new path forward based on our situation, then we go back to nature. Now, how can we work with nature again with this new path? And you know what I mean?

Ceridwen

I love everything that you said. And it makes me think, have you ever heard of, do you know what an SNS is? Supplemental Nursing System?

Yeah, I do, yeah. I feel like that's just something that I like to talk about as well for like, just because you're not, maybe you're not producing enough milk at the breast or something, it doesn't mean you can't still breastfeed because you can use this Supplemental Nursing System. For anyone listening, a Supplemental Nursing System is basically a tube where you, one end of the tube is like in a bottle of either expressed milk or formula milk.

And then the other end of the tube, you have baby latched on, but the other end of the tube is in their mouth. So they're also, if they're getting, they might be getting milk from the breast, but they're also getting additional milk from, and from the tube, from the milk in the bottle. And not only does this like, of course mean that they're still having that connection and all the good things that come, you know, the oxytocin for both, the jaw development or whatever, the oral function for the baby.

But there's, sorry, totally lost my train of thought.

Claire

But it's, yeah, they're getting what they need on both levels, right? Like we're not, I think like their belly's being full just for closeness and we're not, or whatever. Like, it's like, they're getting both.

Ceridwen

Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I was gonna say it also actually increases the chances that they will be able to go back to exclusively breastfeeding. Right, because the mother's body is like responding to the- Yeah, getting that extra stimulus from the baby at the nipple.

And, you know, even for the baby, yeah, all the benefits and even kind of preventing bottle preference as well, which that's a big, I'm sorry, I don't know if you know that I'm a lactation counselor, so this is why.

Claire

No, I didn't.

Ceridwen

Okay, cool. This is like my thing, but, so again, for the baby, it's like, it also prevents that bottle preference that can develop in some babies when you introduce a bottle. So where they would either prefer like the, it's usually to do with the flow of the milk being faster from the bottle that they tend to prefer.

And also the kind of very continuous, whereas with the breast, they have to work for a little bit. So we're not getting them used to that. I mean, there's ways, obviously.

And even like, this is another example with making formula feeding even a bit more close to like mimicking, you know, that nature's design with breastfeeding is like using a paste bottle feeding technique, which I'm sure you may be familiar with, yeah. So where we're just like, first of all, really tuning into our baby, really watching them as they're feeding to make sure that we're picking up on any clues that maybe they do need a break from the feed and really being responsive to them. But also just the way we hold the bottle to kind of make the flow of the milk a little bit slower, allowing them to even suck on like an empty teat for a little bit, just kind of again, mimicking that.

So it's not just rather tipping this bottle in their mouth, they're gulping it down. It can cause more gas and stuff. And when we do mimic a bit more with the bottle feeding, we mimic a bit more of the like, quote unquote, natural design.

But like, it does actually still have those benefits, it's beneficial, yeah.

Claire

Right, I love that. Yeah, just like a conscious approach that just allows you to stay tuned into them, but then them to stay tuned into themselves as well.

Ceridwen

It's so important. Yeah.

Claire

Love that. Yeah, and I think that like the next one is putting connection at the forefront of everything that we do. And I think that this is like, we don't even need, like this is such a good example of that, right?

Like where it's like, it doesn't have to look a certain way for you to stay connected to your child.

Ceridwen

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, that's where we're very aligned in our principles, I think as well with like, you know, just because there might have been some kind of separation or disconnection, we can still support it. Like we can still make it the absolute priority to support it in any other way that we possibly can.

And that's always like, you know, like inherent in connection is the fact that it is mutually beneficial.

Claire

Yeah, totally. And like connection too is such, I think such a beautiful one because it's basically being open to asking, like, what are you telling me about you? And what are you telling me about me?

At the same time, you know what I mean? And like, so I think that like through this connection, we're able to really, really accept our babies for what they are, who they are, rather than who we thought they'd be, what we want them to be, right? And then in that communication, we're being mirrored back, like, and what is this telling me about me?

And what is this showing me about like where I'm moving and what my next step is and who I am? And so just that openness and presence, I think can, I think it's the answer to so many moments of doubt or so many moments where you're coming to terms with the fact that maybe this isn't gonna look like I thought it would or wanted it to, but I can still grow and learn to accept myself and through learning to accept you, yeah.

Ceridwen

That's where our babies really are. Such great teachers.

Claire

They're good leaders.

Ceridwen

I think like our babies are, you know, I think you've kind of touched on this already, but like our babies are not, we're already conditioned in this kind of separation-oriented perspective that our society tends to have, but our babies have none of that. Our baby's connection is the only thing that they're wired for. And like, they can just teach us, you know, I think we can read all these books on like how to take care of a baby, but really like nobody's gonna teach you better how to take care of your baby than your baby.

Claire

Your baby, totally.

Ceridwen

And just listening to them, yeah.

Claire

Totally, totally. And I often think about like you just said, they come to us so open for connection and so connected to themselves, but also like this like realm that they've come from. Do you know what I mean?

Like that connection is so open. And so like, I've always thought about like that. I felt that so viscerally with my son.

Like I'm like, when you're sleeping, you are like running through the cosmos. Like, I don't know where you are doing, but like you're really connected to something that I think that my connection has been like muddied. My connection has been like muddied like through the way that I was raised or whatever, just from being a freaking person on this earth.

Like I just, and so like one of my goals became like, how can through connecting to you, can I keep you connected to yourself and therefore keep that channel of connection open to like a more spiritual realm for you?

Ceridwen

You know what I mean?

Claire

It's just like, it's all connected, you know? So yeah, anyway, it was like a bit of a- No, I love that.

Ceridwen

I think that really just like drives home for me the, I mean, even kind of, we can talk about like, I think your last principle, have we gone, we've gone through four.

Claire

There's one in the middle, which is embracing change as an ally, which I think we've kind of, I mean, we've sort of spoken on this a bit, but it's, I think it just has to do with like honoring that like life is cyclical and there's always going to be death and there's always going to be rebirth. And it's like, how can we embrace the change and know that it's like where our level up, like our embracing the change, like melting into it is like where we find that level up. And then also honoring what is so hard for us to honor, which is just the duality of like, again, if you look into a garden, nothing is ever blooming right at the same time.

Like there's going to be death in a certain part of the garden and then new life in another part. And it's like, you know, like with becoming a mother, like the maiden part of you does die away. And then the mother part of you is born and like, how can we honor the grief and the joy at the same time, rather than fighting it?

And, you know, I think that our culture really encourages fighting against it. And, you know, we can like bounce back culture and how pervasive it is in so many different areas that aren't just like about fitting into your genes. Like it's really, it's really pervasive.

And so, but yeah, just being like the old me, you know, she's always going to be in me, but I'm saying goodbye to certain elements and then transmuting her into this new me.

Ceridwen

And so- I love that like that permission. I think sometimes it does, as a new mom, just have permission that like, it is okay to grieve the parts that you are sad about like changing. Yeah.

And also to like know that there's also beautiful things blooming in other places. Yeah.

Claire

Totally. And if we don't properly grieve, then I don't think that we can transmute to the best of our ability, you know? Like if we ignore that, I think that's a necessary part.

Yeah. And then the last one is just the interconnectedness. So the idea that the rainwater will move through the soil and either bring, you know, sickness to the community or bring new nutrition or whatever, like nourishment to the community.

Or if the farmer harvests his vegetables and one is like riddled with pesticides or whatever. And, you know, the community members are eating that versus the one that was like tended to with like love and care and seaweed fertilizer or whatever. It's like, that's totally different like frequency.

And yeah. I think this is... Sorry.

No, no, no. It's just to apply it to motherhood. It's just that, you know, what happens in the four walls of your home doesn't stay there.

And like, it's an act. It's a revolutionary act. The way that you mother is a revolutionary act because it's gonna go off into the children will leave, you know?

And what are they gonna leave with? So that's the last one. And then there's, you know, a conversation too of like the interconnectedness of just the village and how we need community.

And yeah. Just the fact that what you're doing with and for and to and alongside your baby is not just about you two. It is, but it's also not.

Ceridwen

Yeah. It's about everything that like ripples out from it. And I think this is where I was gonna tie it.

So what you mentioned about helping, you know, through your mother and your son in this very intentional way and helping him to maintain his connection to like that greater, almost spiritual kind of realm. That's what you're then encouraging him to like bring into this world. And that's what ripples out, which is just so beautiful.

We are gonna have to wrap up this episode, but we've got our Q&A episode coming next. So for those of you who are listening to this episode now, I should be either, if you're listening to this right when it's released, the Q&A episode will be released later this week. But if you're listening to this in the future, the Q&A episode has probably already been released.

So keep an eye out for that because Claire is gonna be talking to us about how to set up a postpartum environment for you and your newborn. Claire, thank you so much today for talking about this with us. I think your regenerative paradigm is just so interesting and such a nourishing way, perspective to have on motherhood.

And especially, I'm so excited for the pregnant moms who are gonna hear this and have this just beautiful perspective on what is to come. Before we end this episode, could you tell us a little bit about where anyone can find you, if they'd like to learn more about you or your work?

Claire

Yes. My website, regenerativemotherhood.com, you can find a lot of information there and the opportunity to work with me one-on-one, whether it's for birth or postpartum or sleep or whatever. And then on Instagram, it's just my name, at clairefagan.

And I'm on there sometimes. I'm on there less and less as time goes on.

Ceridwen

I feel you.

Claire

Yeah. But yes. Yeah, you can find me both those places.

And I just wanna say thank you so much for having me. And it feels so good to be able to talk about this with somebody who is so aligned. And I love chatting about these things with somebody who just gets it.

So it was just really fun. So thank you very much.

Ceridwen

Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on before we ended the episode today?

Claire

Oh my gosh.

Ceridwen

Do you feel like we covered everything?

Claire

I think if you take nothing else away, just remember that you have every answer that you need. As a mother, your brain changes, your body changes to be wired, to be in such deep connection with your baby that you may not have the reasoning, you may not understand like why their brain is doing what it's doing or whatever, but you'll have your end answer if you just tune into your baby. And I think don't ever let anybody make you feel that that is wrong.

Like if your answer is your answer, then that can't be wrong. And you don't need to have anybody else's opinion and you'll get a lot of them to just honor like what your baby's asking of you and like what your body is asking of you. And yeah, the answers are in you.

We're wired for that. I love that. That's a great takeaway.

Ceridwen

Yeah, thank you so much. I just have one more question for you before we end the episode today. If you could go back and talk to your pregnant self when you're expecting your first baby and you can give her one piece of advice or something that you wish she just knew, what would you tell her?

Claire

Oh my goodness. What would I tell her? Oh my gosh, I feel like I could tell her a thousand things. I feel like I might cry about it. I feel, you know, I think that I think that I would tell her, I think I would tell her to speak as present as possible.

Like the thing, like the things that feel important, like probably aren't compared to like what's right in front of me. I still need to take that advice. I still like to think that laundry pile is more important than the puzzle that we've done 1 million times, but like, it's just not.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Claire

Just like stay present to yourself and to your baby and just know that he's not broken just because he wants to be by you, near you, on you.

Ceridwen

So important. Thank you so much, Claire. Thanks for having me.

For those of you who are listening, we'll see you in the next episode. Oh, that conversation just brings me such joy. I honestly, while I was editing this episode, I just could not help but smiling as I was listening and just soaking in that conversation one more time.

It was truly a joy to have and truly a joy to get to listen to again. I hope that it brought you as much, I keep saying joy, but I don't know. I don't know.

It just, it really reminded me just how special my relationship with my son is and how, I guess I'm coming out at the other side of this now with a two and a half year old. And so I guess I'm looking back. I know a lot of you are probably looking forward at what's to come from both angles.

I think Claire really just reminds us of the joy, the true joy that is the relationship between the mother and baby. Thank you so much for listening today. I'm really glad that you're here.

If you're new here to the podcast, I encourage you to queue up a few more episodes here on the Postpartum Prep Podcast. We talk about all things, newborns, babies, feeding, sleep, mental health, all the things to do with becoming a mother, welcoming a new baby, and preparing for your baby's arrival. And make sure you're subscribed so you never miss a new episode.

If you enjoyed this episode today, it would really mean a lot to me if you could please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I also am going to be releasing a video version of this episode on YouTube. So if you want to keep up with the video versions of my episode, head on over to my YouTube.