How Much Sleep Do Babies Need? (What's Actually Normal)

Ceridwen

Welcome back to the Postpartum Prep Podcast. My name is Ceridwen. I'm your podcast host and your guide to preparing for a smoother start to life with your new baby.

Here on the postpartum prep podcast, we talk all the things you need to know about life after birth, from caring for your baby to postpartum recovery and postpartum mental health, to navigating visitors and boundaries after birth, and today we have Rachel Shepard-Ohta from Hey Sleepy Baby here with us. We're going to be talking about how much sleep babies need. Rachel is a leading voice in biologically normal attachment focused infant sleep and parenting, and she's known for translating research, lived experience, and global parenting practices into practical guidance for modern families.

She is a forthcoming Hay House author of Cradle Culture, which I believe is going to be published in 2027.

Rachael

Yes, in February.

Ceridwen

And where she'll be exploring the history, science, and cross-cultural approaches to infant sleep and caregiving. Rachel is also the founder of Hey Sleepy Baby, an online platform offering gentle attachment centered baby and toddler sleep support. And as a formal special education teacher and mom of three living in San Francisco, she launched her brand in 2020 after navigating her own child's sleep challenges.

And she also hosts two podcasts, No One Told Us, where she has honest, nuanced conversations about the realities of pregnancy, postpartum, and early parenthood. And You Are So Right, where it's kind of similar, but more personal. Is my understanding?

Yeah, that one's more just chatty, fun mom talk. Yeah. Which we all need.

Exactly. Well, thank you for being here, Rachel. And we're so excited to have you here today.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat. Um, I wanted to tell you like the backstory of why I wanted to have you on the podcast today.

Um, basically when I had my son in 2023, I, he was three months old and I just, you know, everything was going fine with sleep. I just was curious, like, oh, I wonder how much babies should be sleeping. So I Googled it.

And of course, I came across a sleep trainers website, which told me that my son wasn't sleeping enough. And so I ended up spending all day in a dark room with him, trying to force him to nap. Um, and up until then, we'd always just done carrier naps around the house.

Um, but now I was convinced that those carrier naps were not letting him get enough sleep and they were causing short naps and were keeping him awake at night. And my, my son at this point was only three months old, but, um, and, you know, I, I had already been experiencing postpartum depression and now I was also anxious about my baby's sleep. And I was also really isolated because I was home all day in a dark room with my baby, um, which I'm sure also probably wasn't good for him either.

But, um, my saving grace was eventually I did come across your account where I had, you kind of explained how wide the range really is of how much babies sleep. Uh, how much sleep they really need. Yeah.

Um, which was like a light bulb. And I also had seen on your account about low sleep needs, which especially as my son got older, it just became very apparent was the case for him. Um, and so I just, I felt like it would have saved me so much unnecessary stress if I had just found your account sooner and I'd learned from you sooner.

Um, and so I kind of wanted to do like a little episode today for the pregnant mom's listening who might benefit from the same information that I learned from you. Um, so that's why I wanted to have this conversation here today.

Rachael

Um, I love that. I mean, I don't love that you went through that, but that is such a common experience and was definitely my experience with my first, first baby too. Yeah.

Ceridwen

So I'm curious, um, say, you know, that question that I had Googled, how much sleep do babies need? If I had ended up on your website instead of someone else's, what do you think I would have heard from you?

Rachael

Well, it's interesting because I mean, I don't know what website you looked at. You could tell me later, but, um, if that person was using like evidence-based information, they should have had the same chart that I have and that, um, that most people who look at infant sleep research would have, which is from, uh, the Academy of sleep medicine. Um, the AAP, the American Academy of Pediatrics has also endorsed it.

So it's like pretty well established and basic. Um, but it basically says that for infants, which they say is four to 12 months, 12 to 16 hours a day is a pretty standard. Um, and that's combined naps and overnight.

So it also depends, you know, how much is your baby napping during the day? That might mean that they only sleep like nine or 10 hours overnight, which is completely fine. But we have these ideas in our head that babies need 12 hours straight at night and all of that stuff.

And so that's for infants, four to 12 months for newborns. It's even more, they can sleep up to like 18, 19 hours a day. Sometimes some newborns come out super, super sleepy.

Um, and that's normal. And then there are other newborns who are just like, we call them these FOMO babies. They just don't want to miss out.

They're super alert and they're really hard to get down and they might be sleeping for only like 11 or 12 hours a day. So again, if you have a baby at the same time as your friend, like you said, you cannot compare them because one might be on that low end of the spectrum. One might be on the high end of that spectrum.

That's the difference of like six hours. And so you and your friend are having completely different experiences. One of you is able to get out and about.

And the other one is really just like kind of stuck at home under this sleeping baby most of the day in those early weeks. So, um, yeah, so that we do have some standard guidance. And then for kids who really seem to need less than that, we do say that they might be low sleep needs, which we can talk about later, too, if you want.

Ceridwen

Yeah, I'd love actually for you to, because that was a real light bulb moment. Would you mind explaining a little bit about what that really means?

Rachael

Sure. And so this is a tricky one because, and I actually, I wrote a whole article on my sub stock about it, um, because it is kind of tricky. So a lot of times parents will like glob onto this term low sleep needs and be like, oh, I have a low sleep needs kids.

Cause they're just so hard to get to sleep and they don't sleep enough. And some kids definitely are truly low sleep needs, just like adults. Like, you know, everybody probably knows that person that stays up super late, gets up super early and they function absolutely fine.

Whereas I personally love getting like 10 hours of sleep a night. Like I'm definitely high sleep needs. Um, but just like us, babies and kids are all different too.

The only problem with talking about low sleep needs is sometimes parents, again, they want a reason for why they're struggling with sleep. And so just chalking it up to saying, oh, my kid is just low sleep needs. Again, that might be true, but we want to be careful that that's actually what's going on and that they don't actually need more sleep than what they're getting.

Right. So for a truly low sleep needs kid, it's, you know, you're struggling to get them to nap. They're taking really short naps.

They stay up super late. They just can't wind down at, you know, six or seven, like other babies. They might wake up super early in the morning.

They might do all of these things, right. Combined. Um, and they tend to have, you know, that lower end of normal, uh, sleep per 24 hours.

It's the toddler that, you know, drops their nap before they're two and they're just totally fine and good to go. And the key with low sleep needs is that they are well rested, energetic, growing fine, functioning great during the day. Um, if they're not, if they're groggy, irritable, um, not growing well, if there are any of those other things, you know, like pale face bags or dark circles under the eyes, those things could all point to, yeah, maybe they're not getting enough sleep, but they, they actually need more.

So we kind of need to get to the bottom of why they're not sleeping well. Um, but yeah, low sleep, learning about low sleep needs can be really helpful for parents who are trying so desperately to get their baby to fit into these like charts that you find on Google. Right.

Ceridwen

Yeah. I think that was, um, like another thing that I had read about was about these wake windows, which I know there's like very mixed opinions on that, but I just think for, you know, in my case, where my son just did not need as much sleep as like, you know, I mean, even those ranges, like, you know, from newborns to like 11 to like over 20 hours, like how can you have a specific kind of schedule that would be all those.

Exactly.

Rachael

And yeah. And wake windows are just one tool. They are like, not at all, uh, a requirement because again, they really work for like that middle of the road.

They work for the average. Um, and even wake windows. I mean, sometimes you see that the range for wake windows for the same age group is like two hours.

So it's like, okay, how helpful is that really? Yeah.

Ceridwen

That's so true.

Rachael

I mean some parents really love them and they find them super helpful. So like I'm all for it. If it's not harmful, um, as long as you're not, you know, forcing sleep that your baby doesn't want to take.

Ceridwen

Yeah. For the pregnant parents who might be listening, who might not actually know what we're talking about when we say wake windows, sure. And I've explained a little bit.

Rachael

Yeah, totally. I know all of this sleep jargon. It's just ridiculous.

So wake windows really just mean those little windows of time that your baby is awake in between sleeps. So babies tend to nap multiple times a day. So the periods in between where they're not sleeping are what we call wake windows.

And there's lots of different formulas and charts and ranges and things like that that you'll see online about how long they're supposed to stay awake. And the idea is that, I mean, I didn't know this when I first became a mom, but like they need to sleep a lot most of the time, right? Like they need to sleep at least more than I thought.

I thought maybe like they had two naps a day or something, but then the newborn comes out and it feels like they're never awake sometimes. Like they're waking up briefly, opening their eyes for a second, maybe feeding right back to sleep. And I didn't know that that's how it worked, at least for my first baby was like that.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I think the wake windows thing is really not so much a science. Like it's not really evidence based. There's no research paper that said this is how much babies can be awake during the day.

Um, so it's not really science based, but it is just more so math, right? So we have these sleep guidelines that are kind of scientific that came out of the AMA and the AAP. So, you know, someone at some point, I don't know who invented them, but someone at some point did the math and they said, okay, if the baby's going to sleep for this many hours a day, parents probably want them to sleep, you know, 10 to 12 hours overnight.

What's left. Let's sprinkle those hours throughout the day and figure out how much time is in between. So it's really just like backwards math is how wake windows came to be.

And then parents, again, some parents, not all, but some parents found them really helpful because they were like, Oh wow. I never would have thought it was time for an app already, but here we go. And they find that their baby is happier and going to sleep easier if they're not waiting too long to get them down and if they're not super overtired.

So they can be helpful, but again, they're just one tool. I re I really recommend using them in partnership with like learning about your baby's cues. So I have a free guide that's like a wake window, but sleep more so sleepy cues guide.

It's kind of like a trick. Cause I know all parents, I know all parents are looking for a wake windows chart. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to give you a wake windows chart, but actually I'm going to stuff it full of information about learning your baby's cues because that's going to be so much more useful and applicable to a wider range of parents.

That's amazing.

Ceridwen

And we will make sure that, you know, all the subset articles and your guides and everything, we'll make sure that they're all linked in the episode notes.

Rachael

Okay.

Ceridwen

Um, I'm thinking about the wake windows. Like, I guess if it's kind of backwards math, I'm thinking what that mean, they're just expecting that every baby is going to be taking a nap. That's the same length, for example.

Right.

Rachael

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's why these sleep schedules, that's why these sleep schedules that you find online can be so anxiety producing because they really do plan out down to the minute.

Sometimes, like if you Googled three month old sleep schedule, you would find a sleep schedule that told you what time your baby should be waking up, how long they should be awake for, what time they should be taking their first nap and how long that first nap should last. And then their next wake window. So that the next nap can be it's, I mean, if, if that works for you and you have a really like easy guide, going chill baby that will fall into that type of schedule, Godspeed.

Um, but to me, that was always just so anxiety provoking and it's just so unrealistic to assume that all kids are going to sleep the exact same amount at the exact same times. I mean, families have different work schedules and kids have different daycare and I mean, especially if you have a second kid and you're doing preschool drop-off like that stuff is just not going to happen. So it's just really unrealistic.

And so I really don't want parents to feel like it's something that they have to follow for their baby to have healthy sleep. Babies have healthy sleep with wake ups with short naps. Like that is all just very biologically normal.

Ceridwen

Thank you for explaining. I I'm curious maybe for, you know, again, some of the pregnant parents who might be listening. Um, if we're looking for sleepy cues, kind of what would be, why would they want to do that?

Um, and kind of, yeah.

Rachael

Yeah. I mean, I think the best part or the most important part of the postpartum period is just learning about your baby and observing them and figuring out what makes them tick. And this is actually so much more important than parents realize because it's kind of like those very early building blocks of building a secure attachment because babies come to the world kind of with this beautiful expectation that the people around them will tune into them and respond to them and meet their needs.

Right? So if your baby cues that they are hungry or that they are tired, the more reliably we can meet those needs, the more safe and secure they're going to feel. Um, so it is really important to, you know, put down the app trackers, put down the wake window charts for a minute and like really just focus on tuning into your baby.

So you can learn those, those little signals that they give you for, Oh, this means I'm tired. Oh, this means I'm hungry. This means I am overwhelmed and I just like need a break.

Um, and those things really can be so helpful and they can make you feel so empowered as a parent that you know what your baby needs and you know what to give them rather than constantly consulting like an app or a website or chat to BT or something. True.

Ceridwen

I'm curious because you, um, brought up the apps, like what's your opinion on, I mean, I don't love them.

Rachael

Um, so luckily after I had my first two, there really still wasn't anything super popular on the market. By the time I had my third, everybody was using a Huckleberry. Um, I know there's another one now called Napper and now people are using chat GPT.

So that's what I hear most often now is like people are just plugging in their baby's age and their schedule and their wake up time and chat GPT will like spit out, you know, a, a schedule or a wake window, um, chart or table for you. And I mean, AI is like a whole separate issue that I won't get into cause I get spicy about that topic. Um, but I just, again, I feel like it really kind of takes away your agency as the parent and takes away this kind of beautiful, uh, part of early parenting, which is just really trial and error and trial and error and learning and figuring it out.

Um, and not only that, but again, like we talked about, there is such a huge range of what is normal. And, um, I know some of these apps will like adjust and they have algorithms and stuff like that so that they can become more accurate, but I still just don't love them. Um, in my experience, just working with parents and, and our clients, they, they can cause a lot of anxiety and a lot of rigidity.

And I think a lot of, you know, certain types of parents really glob onto them because that's just their personality, right? Like they're super type a or they're really high achieving and they love schedules and they love routine. And I totally understand that.

Um, so again, it's kind of like, there's no right or wrong if, if you find it super helpful and if your baby is easygoing and you're not forcing them to sleep in a dark room for five hours a day, just because this app told you they needed to be sleeping, then, you know, go for it. Uh, but if you find that you're becoming really obsessed with tracking or you get really upset or really agitated or really irritable, if naps don't happen exactly when they should, and it's really kind of just like messing with your head and ruining your day-to-day experience with your baby, then delete them. It's really not, it's not that deep.

And again, nothing terrible is going to happen to your baby if they don't take a nap at the exact time that your app told them to. Um, so again, just different personalities, different, different babies needs. I won't say that they're, they're good or bad, but I don't actively recommend them.

Ceridwen

I love, I, I really appreciate your approach to focusing on like, just tuning into your baby and you know, also like what feels right for you as a parent. Um, I also just wanted to mention for anyone listening about an episode that we recently released with Amy Brown. Oh, she's great.

She is great. Um, I actually got to meet her a few years ago or no, last year. I know.

Rachael

I've been looking at her. Her research for my book recently, actually.

Ceridwen

Yeah. She's wonderful. So we did an episode about her research that she's done on strict baby routines.

Yes. Um, so that was, so, um, and she mentioned in that kind of, or, I mean, this is, so I met her at a conference and the reason why I then had her on the podcast was because after that conference, it was going round and round in my mind, how she had said, um, one of the main impacts on parents was increased levels of anxiety when it came to practicing strict baby routines, which I was, I was like, she needs to talk about this on the podcast.

Rachael

Cause it's like your, it's like your experience. Yeah. It's like your experience at the beginning and mine as well.

I mean, my first postpartum experience was totally ruined by, uh, by that type of stuff. And I didn't have the apps yet, but again, it was these like wake window, uh, schedules and nap schedules and strict, bedtimes and all of that kind of stuff. It just, yeah.

Yeah.

Ceridwen

No, I mean, obviously, you, you know, like we've said many times in this episode already, like if it works for you, amazing. And like, there are certainly babies that it can work for. Um, but you know, I think in her research is only like 10 to 15%, which is pretty low.

Yeah. Um, the next kind of thing that I wanted to touch on was something else that I had read in, in what I had read, um, which was about, you know, your baby should to have like high quality naps, your baby. And cause you know, up until this point, I'd been mainly doing carrier naps in the daytime, um, moving, or obviously in the daytime for naps, but in the daylight, so to have high quality naps, you need to have, your baby needs to be in their crib, dark room, no noise.

Um, and like that, you know, I went from being free and able to go out and, you know, be with people while my baby was napping to suddenly being like tied, tied to the bedroom, um, at home. And I was kind of curious, would you agree with these or would you say they're total myths or kind of what would you have said to me?

Rachael

If I know those are total, those are total myths for a lot of reasons. I mean, number one in the newborn period, babies don't have their circadian rhythm set yet. So they are getting their melatonin cues from breast milk if they're breastfed.

And it's really important actually that during the day they're exposed to light because that's, what's going to help their cycle mature, you know, quickly, or at least in a reasonable amount of time. And the reason we want that is because once there's circadian rhythm kicks in, you know, usually in the first three or four months, uh, sometimes a little bit earlier, once that happens, we're more likely to see consolidated sleep at night. Before that it's really just like they're on their own time table.

They don't know it's nighttime and they should be sleeping. They don't know it's daytime and they should be awake. They're just sleeping and waking and sleeping and waking.

Um, and so part of what helps that cycle mature is sunlight during the day. So it's really ridiculous to say that newborns need to take naps in a dark room. Not only that, but I mean, for safe sleep guidance, really people don't like to hear this cause it's inconvenient, but babies under six months who are the most vulnerable to SIDS really should be sleeping in proximity to their caregiver for naps and nighttime.

So that means room sharing overnight, which most parents I think do, uh, because that's recommended pretty much everywhere. But a lot of people don't realize that it also applies to naps. So if you're trying to put your really young baby in their own bedroom, in a dark room for a three hour nap during the day, like that's leaving them more vulnerable, right?

So it actually is better and healthier for both of you to get out and do carrier naps or do a nap on the go. So you can go meet with a friend so that your mental health is, you know, better that all is so, so much more important than having your baby learn to sleep in a dark room. That is just not based in any science whatsoever.

As far as after that period, again, babies have evolved to sleep on their caregivers almost all the time. So babies are, you know, if you look at other cultures, cultures, still babies are carried around on people's backs or, um, you know, they're just on the go in strollers or they're sleeping on a grandparent's lap or an auntie's lap. It just is not that deep in most other places.

It's like really just a very Western idea that we need to have this hyper sense of control around how and where they sleep. There is no research to suggest that naps on the go or any less restorative. In fact, there's research to prove the opposite, which is that, um, sleep can actually be improved by gentle rocking motion and things like that.

So if you're walking around with your baby or if you're rocking them or if they're in the stroller or in the car, I mean, there's a reason so many babies will pass out the second they get into the car because that movement is calming to them in some way. So you really don't need to worry about doing naps at home or in the dark. Now I will say the only caveat to that would be if you do have a baby with a really sensitive temperament, um, which I talk about temperament all the time because it's so important and nobody else talks about it for some reason.

But if you have a baby with a really sensitive temperament, my son was this way and these babies will sometimes have a really hard time kind of shutting out external stimuli. So noises, lights, moving around, changes in scenery, like being on the go just is too stimulating for them and they will have a harder time falling asleep that way. So for those babies you might find, okay, they actually really need to be at home in their crib in the dark or we actually really do need to be doing like a contact nap, um, for them to fall asleep and stay asleep.

Then that's fine. You do that and you figure out other ways to, to get out and fill your own cup. Um, but it's definitely not something that is across the board necessary at all.

Ceridwen

Awesome. Thank you. I've actually done your temperament workshop.

So I highly recommend, um, yeah, I think exactly like you said, temperament is such a huge factor in things. I mean, even kind of, we talk about, like we've said, you know, some babies something will work and some babies something doesn't work. And it's like, well, why is that?

And exactly. Yeah. Probably because of temperament.

And it's like once you can understand your baby's temperament, you're, I mean, it's, again, it's about learning your baby. And I think it's, yeah, I just, I am really, yeah. I love that you talk about temperament so much and I highly recommend your temperament workshop as well.

Thank you.

Rachael

Am I right that you currently have it on? Yeah, it's actually available right now on demand. I'll probably keep it up for another couple of weeks.

Okay. Um, cause people keep missing this sign up date and I feel too bad. I don't want to ever be like, no, it's closed.

Um, so yeah, it should be up until like April or sorry. It should be up until March 1st. Okay.

Awesome.

Ceridwen

I think this episode will be coming out before. Oh, it's actually the 25th of February right now. So possibly.

Rachael

Oh yeah. Oh my God. It's already the end.

Ceridwen

I know.

Rachael

I thought it was like the 14th. All right. So I always run it again.

So if you are watching or listening and you miss it, I do have a free stuff on my website, blogs about temperament and about sensory and things like that, which you can get a lot of information from that. And then you can also always, depending on whenever you listen to this, you can always be on the temperament, um, blog on my page. And there's a little link there where you can sign up for the wait list for whenever I run it next live, which is usually like once a quarter.

Yeah.

Ceridwen

Yeah.

Rachael

Amazing.

Ceridwen

Um, there's another thing that you talk about, uh, and I believe you have a new guide for it. This flags. Yeah.

And you know, we're talking today about how to know if your baby is getting enough sleep or how much they need. Um, can you explain a little bit about like how sleep red flags can help us to determine possibly if your baby's getting enough sleep?

Rachael

Totally. Yeah. So a lot of parents worry like, Oh, my baby's still waking up two or three times at night or, um, things like that.

They, they really worry about night wakings and sleeping through the night. And I always say like, I'm really actually not that concerned if your baby is still waking up at night because that's very normal for them to do so. But I do worry if it's a, a lot of waking meaning like every hour or B if they are super upset, um, like restless, thrashing, screaming.

If the wakings are really dramatic and then if it also takes a very long time for them to settle back down, it's like they seem like they're in pain or uncomfortable. Um, and that's happening multiple times a night. That can be really distressing and that also might be a clue that there's something deeper going on than simply regular, you know, infant night waking, which again is very normal.

So I started talking about this and I use the term red flags because again, it's not necessarily something is terribly wrong with your baby, but if there is that like really dramatic or really frequent waking and it's happening for a sustained period, it's not just, you know, a couple of nights when they're teething or sick, then there might be something going on underlying that is causing poor sleep.

So, um, things that are most common, I would say are allergies or intolerances, um, and airway issues. So enlarged adenoids or enlarged tonsils or sleep apnea. Um, and so those things will cause really, really disrupted sleep.

And a lot of times what happens, at least here in the United States, is that parents will go to their pediatrician and they'll say, Oh my gosh, we're exhausted. They're waking up every couple hours or they're waking up every hour and you know, they're thrashing around or they're snoring or they just don't seem like they're getting good quality rest. I can just tell that they're not sleeping well or deeply.

And the pediatrician will usually tell them, okay, you need to sleep train or that's not going to improve. And it's really unfortunate because then, you know, maybe the parents do decide to sleep train, but there could still be some type of medical issue underlying, um, that's not going to necessarily get treated. So I did just create like a really comprehensive free guide to red flags for baby sleep.

I talked about it with pediatricians. Um, they helped me co-create it and it's really meant to be like a, it's a printable and it's really meant to be an advocacy tool. So you can go through all of the different symptoms and there's check boxes and things like that.

There's tons of evidence and, um, and research papers linked in there so that you can bring it to your pediatrician and see like, look, this is evidence-based. This is not just woo woo stuff from Instagram, right? So that they take you seriously and you say, and there's, there's guides on their questions to ask your pediatricians that you are taken seriously.

And, and it's really meant to be like a bridge between you and your healthcare provider. So you can figure out what's going on with your baby.

Ceridwen

Wow. That sounds it's even better than I imagined. But when I first, um, like heard that you had this, cause I, I run a mom group and I, you know, I would bring up like your blog posts that you, I don't know if you still have it, but the one about sleep red flags and I couldn't go through the things.

And so then when I heard you had a whole guide, I was like, yes. And also it's free, right? Yeah.

It's free. Yeah. Amazing.

And yeah, it's actually, it's even better from your description than I even imagined it would be. So that's amazing. Um, I also wanted to ask, cause you're writing a book.

Yeah. Can we get like a sneak peek maybe into what you're writing about at the moment? 

Rachael

Yeah, of course! I actually just finished up the co-sleeping section, um, where, where and I'm actually getting ready to go to Japan in a couple weeks with my family to interview people there and to kind of hopefully see some different apartment styles and to see the like futon beds that they use for bed sharing with their babies so it's going to be really cool but um yeah the book is really just it's kind of just a culmination of all of my work and everything that I talk about but it's also I it's kind of like a community project at the same time because I am doing so many interviews with people from all over the world and um visiting other places and talking to them about what sleep culture is like there and and how they support their babies to sleep and how they think about sleep and it's just really interesting because once you kind of zoom out from our western view of things you see that there's actually so many different ways to think about this and to do this and there's no one right superior way and I think that's just very freeing because I think for so long sleep culture at least here in the states has been there's one way you sleep train you never bring your baby into your bed and that's just so unrealistic for so many people for a lot of different reasons so um yeah so it's blending like lots of research and cultural anecdotes and interviews and my own experiences as mom and um yeah it's just it's going to hopefully cover a little bit of everything that we've talked about today and more and just with a really cool cross-cultural and anthropological

Ceridwen

lens wow that's amazing I got goosebumps as you were talking about it because I just think how like your work has already impacted like change like life-changing like your work and I think having a book like where you can just get it all and I know I'll be the first to read it oh thank you so much um and also like going to Japan and different you know interviews is just very it sounds really like it's going to be a great book yeah that's that's been the most fun part is talking to talking to all different people yeah wow and I I remember there were a couple of people that you had mentioned you'd been interviewing and I was like oh my god I can't believe they're going to be in your book and like um it's I just already know it's going to be such an amazing book thank you yeah I'm excited I just have one more question for you sure for today and then we're gonna move to our Q&A episode so if you're listening to this episode make sure to queue up the Q&A episode which will be we're mainly talking about um night weaning and night waking so if you're interested check out the Q&A after this episode um but for our last kind of question for this episode I ask everyone who comes on the podcast um I know that you've kind of touched on your journey a little bit in your first postpartum experience with your first baby but the question that I would like to ask you is if you could go back in time to yourself when you were first pregnant with your first baby oh my gosh what advice would you give to your pregnant self yeah

Rachael

oh my gosh um run away from sleep trainers no um I think I would have just told myself that like it will end there is a light at the end of the tunnel I think and I hear this from uh new parents all the time and it's so unfortunate that we don't have this perspective with our first baby and we often get it with our second but everything really is a phase everything does pass everything is temporary and I think when you have your first baby you feel like your whole life has been blown up and especially if you have a really difficult high needs baby like I did and you have postpartum anxiety and all this stuff it can feel like oh my god this is my life forever now this is horrible what did I do to myself and when you if you can zoom out with your first baby and just keep that perspective of this is just a season this is just a phase we will get through this I will sleep again one day you know I mean I look at my eight-year-old now I used to be again such a mess about him and about his sleep and trying to control everything and now he's like the easiest I mean he's still a tough kid in so many ways but when it comes to sleep he is the absolute easiest like he gets in his bed at 7 7 30 reads his book turns out his light goes to sleep sleeps all the way through the night wakes up on his own it's just like I couldn't see when he was a baby that that would someday be my life right and that it actually does get so much easier it gets harder in other ways like parenting there's always something but the sleep part generally gets so much easier as they grow and if we could just learn to like let go a little bit and just trust the process and trust development it really does happen so I would definitely tell myself to chill out and

Ceridwen

just trust the process yeah I feel like it's like no matter what you do at some point they

Rachael

are gonna start sleeping of course yes and everybody's at their own pace I mean you hear parents say it's like oh yeah my six-week-old is sleeping through the night and you want to you know like punch them in the face it does happen but for other people it's three years four years old and there's nothing wrong with either end of that spectrum it's just they're

Ceridwen

all different and thank you for kind of sharing I feel like so many of the you know any pregnant pregnant moms who are listening right now hopefully they can get the benefit of your what you've been through and I know I hope so um so my last question for you is where can people find you if they want to learn more about you or work with you or yeah yeah the easiest place is

Rachael

Instagram or my website so it's at Hey Sleepy Baby and the website is just www.heysleepybaby.com so that's where all of my courses are my free guides that we mentioned I have tons of blog posts on there for like any sleep issue you could imagine and then we do do individual coaching my team is absolutely amazing and we work with clients worldwide so if you really want more of like a personal touch then I recommend working with one of my consultants because they're amazing

Ceridwen

yeah I follow a few of the consultants that work with you on Instagram and they all are amazing they're so great yeah they are oh well thank you so much and I will we will see you in the next in the Q&A episode and everyone listening make sure to hop on over there thank you Rachel thank you